What is the point of the new Mormon philosophy of MG?

[_sock puppet]

Fiona basically says ...women already have [power in] the priesthood...

That's a whole other thread. But I think she's got something there. Dallin Oaks seems to be in agreement with her.

Regards,
MG

Does Dallin's wife attend priesthood meetings with him?

[_Tobin]

...I start getting extremely pissed...when [i] realize that the Church is not what it claims to be.

It's simple claim is to be the only true and LIVING church on the earth. This claim may be true, or not. There are reasons to consider both points of view. I'd be very uncomfortable saying that as a matter of fact the church is NOT what it claims to be.

Well, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. The LDS Church is not the only true and LIVING church on the Earth. It is a man-made organization and nothing more. As the Lord states in Luke 17:21, "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Mormons who don't understand that are simply confused and been taught and believe something completely false.

I don't think Terryl and Fiona Givens are trying to piss anyone off. They are simply exploring alternative views to looking at the world/religion/Mormonism with old assumptions. I don't see where that in and of itself is not a productive endeavor.

Mormonism may have a basis in fact, but I seriously doubt it was anything that you or Terryl or Fiona Givens state. Mormons, as are many religious people, are simply holding on to superstitious beliefs that have no place in the modern world. While the events that sparked such religious movements may have been based on an actual experience, those experiences likely had to do with beings far removed from what Mormons (and other religious people) state about them.

Tobin

[_sock puppet]

I don't fault anyone for doing what they gotta do. What REALLY gets me is not when they make up all this crap to make it work and justify their own activity but when they send their own kids through the same GD meat grinder. What the hell is that all about?

What's it all about? Disrespecting one's children, their intellect and their right to make choices of their individual lives. That's all. It's a very Mormony thing done quite frequently.

[_Bazooka]

I don't fault anyone for doing what they gotta do. What REALLY gets me is not when they make up all this crap to make it work and justify their own activity but when they send their own kids through the same GD meat grinder. What the hell is that all about?

What's it all about? Disrespecting one's children, their intellect and their right to make choices of their individual lives. That's all. It's a very Mormony thing done quite frequently.

Members participate in recruiting new members, including coercing their own children from birth, because it reinforces their owner personal testimony that the Church is true. Its actually a selfish act because recruiting new members makes it harder for them to live up to the requirements necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom in the next life. Let me explain.

If you reject the opportunity to hear about the Gospel, or accept the opportunity and subsequently reject it or accept it, join and fail to live up to the requirements, then you will likely end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. That's where most people and most Mormons are going to end up. Those individuals who don't get the opportunity to hear the gospel in this life receive a free pass on their mortal behaviour (to a point) and instead, get the chance in the next life where they are armed with the sure knowledge that there is a next life. Much easier at that point. Mormon parents should sacrifice their own ambitions by working hard to keep their children from any exposure to the Mormon Gospel, as that is their best chance of achieving exaltation. It is that nutty illogical doctrine which leads the imbalanced Mormon to murder their kids, attempting thereby to ensure their children's exaltation at the expense of their own, what parent wouldn't do that?

[_Maksutov]

The title of the OP is unnecessary and is part of the reason we have problems keeping people around here, like MG, who are willing to even engage.

Can't we at least show him the same respect he does us?

Exactly! Glad you made this observation.

Seconded.

[_Tim the Enchanter]

Lloyd,

The point of the philosophy is that it helps MG conform in order to maintain acceptance and security in his family and church community.

[Guest]

I don't think Terryl and Fiona Givens are trying to piss anyone off. They are simply exploring alternative views to looking at the world/religion/Mormonism with old assumptions. I don't see where that in and of itself is not a productive endeavor.

Regards,
MG

Because in the long run it creates division within the church.

It is a productive endeavor for those with doubts who wish to reconcile those doubts and stay in the LDS church. The problem is that it creates a subgroup of members in the church whose beliefs are in direct conflict with the larger group still holding on to literal and/or original interpretations. You may not have a problem with what they are saying but it is clear many others would reject it as Mormonism. I have a large extended LDS family and group of friends, most of which are still unaware of the extensive historical problems and most of which reject out of hand any suggestion of non literal interpretations of scripture. They are simple not interested in such discussions. As this alternate approach to belief grows those discussions will become inevitable. What happens then? For a great example of what such discussions do just look at the Maxwell Institute evolution over the last year or two and the discussions between those that were thrown out and those that took over. It isn't pretty.

I guess the question becomes at what point do personal interpretations of Mormonism cross the line? If the tent is so large as to encompass any beliefs what is left that separates the LDS church from any other Christian religion? Who gets to decide what is a core belief and what is not? Wouldn't it be great if there were someone to whom we could turn to ask such questions, someone not afraid to declare what God thinks?

The RLDS tried to expand its core beliefs to include women in the priesthood, a non historical view of the Book of Mormon, accepted the fact that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and so on. In doing so it evolved into just another Christian denomination and fragmented into several smaller groups.

The church's current response to those who doubt is a "don't ask and don't tell" policy that clearly will not work in the long run.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

The trick in being a NOM is not working for the Church, but instead, allowing the Church to work for you.

Chew on that one, and I'll elaborate more tomorrow.

I don't want this to turn into some debate about NOMism stuff. I am sure you have a lot to say on the subject but please try to keep it on the topic. I want the discussion to stay as focused as possible. I am looking forward to your comments!

Don't worry. I will keep it on topic. It leads into a blanket statement you made regarding MG, and, I believe other NOMs like myself, who, in spite of recognizing the faults of the Church, continue to attend and believe in our own way.

This was your comment:

I don't fault anyone for doing what they gotta do. What REALLY gets me is not when they make up all this crap to make it work and justify their own activity but when they send their own kids through the same GD meat grinder. What the hell is that all about?

You are making a HUGE assumption here that we all do that. From what MG stated, it sound like he has a pretty open dialogue with his children about the Church, and encourages them to find their own answers, even though they are being brought up in an LDS home.

In the case of how we have raised our children....yes, they have attended Church with us, but we have also had very open conversations about the lessons taught, etc. as a family.

Our younger daughter got married in the temple...her choice. My older daughter will likely get married next year to her non-member boyfriend, and it will be a civil ceremony. His grandfather, who is an active Baptist minister will likely do the ceremony. We are equally happy for both girls, and want what is best for them. Our son is only 10, but when he does reach the age of 18, it will be HIS CHOICE as to whether or not he would like to serve a mission. He is high-functioning autistic, so his health will also play an issue in whether or not it would make sense for him to serve.

As far as my comment about "having the Church work for you" goes...what I meant was this: There are many beautiful aspects to the gospel that I personally find useful. Those that mean a lot to me, I incorporate into my daily life, and in how I raise my kids. The stuff that I don't find useful, I simply reject. I realize that this doesn't work for everyone, and that many people find it an insincere way to live. Ironically, though, every other person I have encountered who has a regular religion that they incorporate into their lives handles things precisely the way I do.

[_Bazooka]

As far as my comment about "having the Church work for you" goes...what I meant was this: There are many beautiful aspects to the gospel that I personally find useful. Those that mean a lot to me, I incorporate into my daily life, and in how I raise my kids. The stuff that I don't find useful, I simply reject. I realize that this doesn't work for everyone, and that many people find it an insincere way to live. Ironically, though, every other person I have encountered who has a regular religion that they incorporate into their lives handles things precisely the way I do.

I would imagine that the majority of the 36% of the membership who bother to turn up on a Sunday fit into this category.
Everyone's a Cafeteria Mormon (and I don't mean that as a slur).

This only becomes a problem for the Church at the point you start pushing back against things and letting your contrary views and opinions become known outside of a one to one with your Bishop.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

If the tent is so large as to encompass any beliefs what is left that separates the LDS church from any other Christian religion?

President Hinckley was actually already making strides in that direction during his attempt to streamline the LDS Church into another Christian religion rather than distinguishing the difference between "Mormons" and "Christians".