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Lloyd Dobler wrote:The bottom line is that nothing much will change at the ward level until well after MG has raised his kids and they are well into adulthood. What matters most regarding positive change in the church is the here and now, while you are raising your kids. I see18 year old boys going out just as ignorant and indoctrinated as they did when I went out in 1990. The same mentality you get with the missionaries online at Mormon.org or whatever is the same mentality I went out with. It's scary because it takes a hell of a lot more than some blogs and books and podcasts by progressive Mormons to make even a small dent at the ward level.

I don't this point can be emphasized enough and I agree completely.

MG, I don't even know how to respond when you break up my post like that. I love how at the end you ask for a list of things to do. I can only assume you wanted a list so you could break it up into little pieces to dilute the point. However, you did say you really wanted a suggestion and so I will share a recent experience from my family life.

Not too long ago, Arizona dedicated the Gilbert Temple. All of the stakes in the temple district suspended YM and YWs for around 3 months and instead, spent this time learning a dance for the cultural celebration that would be attended by the prophet. That's right, the kids spent 3 months, the midweek night and occasional Saturdays, learning a dance. The cultural celebration was not much more than like 10,000 kids dancing. I am sure you are loving this at this point MG. I mean hell, kids are connecting to the deep pageant traditions of their church! They are feeling a part of their tribe!

Of course, our stake leadership asked each YM and YW president in their ward to achieve 100% attendance for the celebration and the 3 months of practice. And as the wards like to do, they reached out to my wife and put the pressure on her to get my kids to attend (and believe me, neither one wanted any part of it) So I told my wife look, our kids can spend untold hours over the next several months preparing for like a 3 minute dance dressed as a culture that isn't even their own or maybe I can come up with a better used of their time. So I found one of the schools that serve homeless kids in the valley. I took my kids over and our whole family got set up to volunteer there once a week tutoring, cleaning, sorting clothes, mentoring kids etc. I don't pay tithing anymore but I took money that would otherwise go to the church and donated it to the school. At the end of the three months, my kids had learned about poverty, parental drug use and crime, the economics of education as well as learned to help those in need etc. They learned this in more than an afternoon...they learned lessons that can only be learned by consistently spending time doing something. What did the other kids in my ward do during this time period? Well they went to practices at night in the cold, with each other......to learn a dance. Of course, it did not help that the performance was a raining disaster. I should know because since we are inactive, they let my kids basically learn the dance in a couple of practices. My wife even chaperoned a group of kids the day of the performance for the prophet. MG, the church spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on this. Kids and adults spent tons of hours on this and for what?........

For what indeed, because if you are a literal believer then there is NOTHING more important than being obedient and having your kids do this for the prophet and the temple etc etc. God knows I heard enough of that talk in my ward and stake. But you're not a literal believer are you MG. Infact, you said it yourself that you actually hold to only a few beliefs. If that is the case, and you are not owned by the church then change it up and go for something better. The experience I just shared is my whole point man.

When you no longer hold the literal beliefs in the church, then the church itself, its programs etc are not enough. They are simply not enough. If you are a true blue tbm, then the programs, well geeez, you can't get enough of them! You can't do enough because everything is awesome. But when you know that there is something rotten in denmark, or the one thing you do know is that you KNOW the church is not true like you used to think, for very good reasons......then it is your responsibility and opportunity to live life beyond the ward building and the church programs in real and dynamic ways.

Tim the Enchanter wrote:

mentalgymnast wrote:Now that would cause mass apostasy. Among the women anyway.

Regards,
MG

No, it wouldn't. What are they going to do? Break their covenants and put their salvation on the line over a reorganization of the First Presidency that doesn't include the man with the silky German accent? If it did happen, very few active members would leave over it.

It was a joke. Lame, I know.

Regards,
MG

Tim the Enchanter wrote:Based on Bednar's apostleship thus far, it does not look at all like Bendar will influence the church towards becoming a traditional Christian community.

I don't think who is prophet will play much into the changes that will occur because of the other factors being discussed in regards to "critical mass". Whoever is prophet is going to be hard pressed not to roll with the punches. What's he going to do...excommunicate and/or discipline thousands or more?

Regards,
MG

Tim the Enchanter wrote:

Lloyd Dobler wrote:The bottom line is that nothing much will change at the ward level until well after MG has raised his kids and they are well into adulthood. What matters most regarding positive change in the church is the here and now, while you are raising your kids. I see18 year old boys going out just as ignorant and indoctrinated as they did when I went out in 1990. The same mentality you get with the missionaries online at Mormon.org or whatever is the same mentality I went out with. It's scary because it takes a hell of a lot more than some blogs and books and podcasts by progressive Mormons to make even a small dent at the ward level.

I don't this point can be emphasized enough and I agree completely.

These podcasts, blogs, and books haven't been around that long. Change doesn't happen overnight.

Yesterday I was talking with a friend of mine who is basically TBM...but we've talked about a number of issues. I was in the car driving home from work with him and he mentioned that his son had been watching TV at McDonalds yesterday morning and the little news ribbon came across the bottom of the screen with information about Joseph Smith and his wives. Big on the news yesterday. This young man recently returned from a mission in Chicago. Pretty orthodox in thought as far as I know. But he was exposed to something new yesterday and mentioned it to his dad and then we talked about it. That sort of thing is probably happening from here to Madagascar.

But it takes time.

Although when you have CNN and morning shows picking up on this stuff it speeds the process along.

Regards,
MG

Lloyd Dobler wrote:MG, I don't even know how to respond when you break up my post like that.

You can use the function keys at the top of the dialogue box you're typing in. It's not too hard. Unless you're on a tablet device.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:

Tim the Enchanter wrote:Based on Bednar's apostleship thus far, it does not look at all like Bendar will influence the church towards becoming a traditional Christian community.

I don't think who is prophet will play much into the changes that will occur because of the other factors being discussed in regards to "critical mass". Whoever is prophet is going to be hard pressed not to roll with the punches. What's he going to do...excommunicate and/or discipline thousands or more?

Regards,
MG

MG, you talk as if Miller and Terryl and Fionna and well.....who else is there?.......you talk as if they are leading this army of thousands who are applying this immense pressure on the Church. You talk as if the brethren are like, "holy crap David, the latest Dehlin podcast just dropped, we need to go to code red" You are aware this is the church we are talking about and not practice. Practice! Are we talking about practice! (little Allen Iverson reference there)

No MG, we are talking about the big game, the Church. The Church is a billion dollar company not only insulated by dollars but by thousands of yes people leading all the way up to the top offices of the COB. I'll grant you that ordain women got some great stuff done. However, you must remember that for all the changes OW caused upon the church, non of those changes impact the programs and policies at the ward level.......by a long shot. Non of those changes impact the teachers and miamaids who continue to be indoctrinated in the same iron rod way all the way through marriage.

Having women pray in church or having them dress in darker clothes and sit closer to the men in charge or talking about how women already have the priesthood or how Uchtdorf said mistakes were made...well that makes for great martinellis sparkling cider cocktail talk for elitist liberal members who have the luxury to talk about this stuff as if it all matters. I may be one of those elitist members or least I used to be but I a sure as hell no longer pretend that I am a part of some great change it from within movement.

mentalgymnast wrote:

Lloyd Dobler wrote:MG, I don't even know how to respond when you break up my post like that.

You can use the function keys at the top of the dialogue box you're typing in. It's not too hard. Unless you're on a tablet device.

Regards,
MG

Thanks!

Lloyd Dobler wrote:Not too long ago, Arizona dedicated the Gilbert Temple. All of the stakes in the temple district suspended YM and YWs for around 3 months and instead, spent this time learning a dance for the cultural celebration that would be attended by the prophet. That's right, the kids spent 3 months, the midweek night and occasional Saturdays, learning a dance. The cultural celebration was not much more than like 10,000 kids dancing. I am sure you are loving this at this point MG.

Not particularly.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:I mean hell, kids are connecting to the deep pageant traditions of their church! They are feeling a part of their tribe!

Sure. That in and of itself is not a bad thing.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:Of course, our stake leadership asked each YM and YW president in their ward to achieve 100% attendance for the celebration and the 3 months of practice. And as the wards like to do, they reached out to my wife and put the pressure on her to get my kids to attend (and believe me, neither one wanted any part of it) So I told my wife look, our kids can spend untold hours over the next several months preparing for like a 3 minute dance dressed as a culture that isn't even their own or maybe I can come up with a better used of their time. So I found one of the schools that serve homeless kids in the valley. I took my kids over and our whole family got set up to volunteer there once a week tutoring, cleaning, sorting clothes, mentoring kids etc.

Awesome!

Lloyd Dobler wrote:I don't pay tithing anymore but I took money that would otherwise go to the church and donated it to the school. At the end of the three months, my kids had learned about poverty, parental drug use and crime, the economics of education as well as learned to help those in need etc. They learned this in more than an afternoon...they learned lessons that can only be learned by consistently spending time doing something.

Sounds like it was a great service/learning opportunity for your kids.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:What did the other kids in my ward do during this time period? Well they went to practices at night in the cold, with each other......to learn a dance. Of course, it did not help that the performance was a raining disaster. I should know because since we are inactive, they let my kids basically learn the dance in a couple of practices.

That was nice of them to let your kids do that.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:My wife even chaperoned a group of kids the day of the performance for the prophet. MG, the church spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on this. Kids and adults spent tons of hours on this and for what?........

Community. Sense of accomplishment. Celebration.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:For what indeed, because if you are a literal believer then there is NOTHING more important than being obedient and having your kids do this for the prophet and the temple etc etc.

That's probably true.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:God knows I heard enough of that talk in my ward and stake. But you're not a literal believer are you MG.

If you've read enough of my posts you know where I'm coming from.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:In fact, you said it yourself that you actually hold to only a few beliefs.

Belief is a jello word. It's loaded. I've described previously my viewpoints that deal specifically with my worldview, my perceptions, the place narrative plays in the human condition, the approach of looking at those things that happen within our experience as being plausible, possible, or probable...but open to variant approached depending on conditions, information, and experience. Simply, the word belief doesn't mean a whole lot to me except as I've said earlier in regards to belief in some intangibles such as love, moral goodness, honesty, work, etc. I believe in those things as being foundational for human success and well being.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:If that is the case, and you are not owned by the church then change it up and go for something better.

I've already explained my position on this.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:The experience I just shared is my whole point man.

Your experience is one of many that could be elaborated upon and/or shared by people in and out of any religious institution/system. Being in or out of a religion doesn't dictate what you can do with or teach your kids about life and service to others.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:When you no longer hold the literal beliefs in the church, then the church itself, its programs etc are not enough. They are simply not enough. If you are a true blue tbm, then the programs, well geeez, you can't get enough of them! You can't do enough because everything is awesome. But when you know that there is something rotten in denmark, or the one thing you do know is that you KNOW the church is not true like you used to think, for very good reasons......then it is your responsibility and opportunity to live life beyond the ward building and the church programs in real and dynamic ways.

And if that's where you're at, then as Pres. Kimball said..."DO IT!"

Sorry about breaking up your post again, but that's the only way I can think of to try and respond adequately to what you're saying.

Regards,
MG

Lloyd Dobler wrote:
MG, you talk as if Miller and Terryl and Fionna and well.....who else is there?.......you talk as if they are leading this army of thousands who are applying this immense pressure on the Church.

Anything that happens will start happening at the ward/branch level...in classes and quorums.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:...ordain women got some great stuff done.

I don't think they took the right approach. But that's another thread. Basically, they didn't get much done because most women in the church are within a doctrinal bubble of "priesthood is for men". You can't just burst that bubble by showing up at a priesthood meeting or wearing different colors to church. That won't change the "doctrine".

Lloyd Dobler wrote:However, you must remember that for all the changes OW caused upon the church, non of those changes impact the programs and policies at the ward level.......by a long shot.

Not surprising.

Lloyd Dobler wrote:Non of those changes impact the teachers and miamaids who continue to be indoctrinated in the same iron rod way all the way through marriage.

But the teaching methods/format have changed somewhat as I've already mentioned. As this model takes hold you may see less scripted classes turning into actual discussions about this and that. If kids start asking questions rather than simply responding to scripted questions that have scripted answers...that is KEY. This change in lesson approach/format has been very recent. It needs time to incubate/mutate into something more.

Regards,
MG