Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

LittleNipper wrote: They are three individual beings in one essence that we call GOD. It would be somewhat like the parts of an egg. The shell is an egg. The white is an egg. The yoke is an egg. Each has its primary task and yet they all work together to the ultimate good of being an egg. Likewise, God the Father directs. God the Son manifests Himself materially. God the Spirit interacts invisibly and can bring comfort/discomfort...


Hi Little Nipper,

I don't think the egg analogy works because you're describing the physical components that produces an ovum. Plus you have more than just those three components that comprise an egg. If you go with the egg you might as well say humans are a good example of the Trinity because we have a mind, a heart, and lymphatic system.

So, are you saying that God is literally three sentient beings merged into one sentient being? Would that amalgamated being then have one consciousness or three consciousnesses? I don't understand the concept you're getting at. If they're three distinct beings working together to an end that makes more sense. Would you mind clarifying a little?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_LittleNipper
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _LittleNipper »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:Adam and Eve were choosing to become as GOD. That is what ultimately persuaded them to eat of the forbidden fruit. They were not naïve. They were lied to by Satan and they fell for it!


Hi Little Nipper,

They didn't have any concept of right or wrong. They hadn't eaten of the fruit, yet. They were incapable of wrongdoing. Additionally, God placed Satan in the garden. On purpose. With naïve humans.

ETA:

LittleNipper wrote:They were lied to by Satan and they fell for it!


Being duped isn't a sin. It's victim blaming to say they're at fault.

V/R
Doc

They didn't have a concept of right and wrong. What they had was a declaration from God of what they should do and not do and the consequences ---- which they both choose to disregard. They chose as did Lucifer -------- to become GOD. The difference is that angels saw the total glory of God. Man didn't see total GOD in heaven.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

huckelberry wrote:I responded to your comment already(in the past,see above) but will not respond further now nor in the near future.


Hello Huckelberry,

I take it you didn't watch the video? If you start at 5:07 it would be helpful in understanding the 4th dimension, and why it's an impossibility that God, who would exist simultaneously in all dimensions, or at the very least have a perfect knowledge of all dimensions, simply couldn't design and create something without knowing what its alpha through omega actions will be.

If you don't believe in a God like that, I'd be curious to understand your concept of God and how His nature would serve the Christian narrative of man, sin, and redemption.

V/R
Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

LittleNipper wrote:They didn't have a concept of right and wrong. What they had was a declaration from God of what they should do and not do and the consequences ---- which they both choose to disregard. They chose as did Lucifer -------- to become GOD. The difference is that angels saw the total glory of God. Man didn't see total GOD in heaven.


Ok, however if God put Satan in the garden w/A&E I'm pretty certain He knew what would happen. Regardless, since they had no knowledge of right or wrong, no comprehension of right or wrong, them being duped by Satan, who was put there by God, simply doesn't equate to sin. They literally couldn't sin until they understood right from wrong.

Regardless, if it was that important to God why didn't He simply stop them, or not put a tree with that kind of fruit there?

On a tangent, how in the world were Adam and Eve, being totally innocent, to multiply and replenish the Earth? Talk about population issues with no death...

ETA: Little Nipper, you have to remember you're dealing with a god who sees everything from every dimensional angle. He's timeless. Check out the video I posted so you can gain perspective. God created A&E to do exactly what they did because He designed them, and then created them, he knew exactly what they would do throughout the entirety of their existence. They obeyed because they were designed that way.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_huckelberry
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _huckelberry »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
huckelberry wrote:I responded to your comment already(in the past,see above) but will not respond further now nor in the near future.


Hello Huckelberry,

I take it you didn't watch the video? If you start at 5:07 it would be helpful in understanding the 4th dimension, and why it's an impossibility that God, who would exist simultaneously in all dimensions, or at the very least have a perfect knowledge of all dimensions, simply couldn't design and create something without knowing what its alpha through omega actions will be.

If you don't believe in a God like that, I'd be curious to understand your concept of God and how His nature would serve the Christian narrative of man, sin, and redemption.

V/R
Doc


I do not have a set view of determinism. I am familiar with the rather lengthy determinist tradition in Christian thought. your comments that I do not buy into are your definition of sin and your claim that God up and condemned Adam. I think those two make a mangle of Christian thinking.

Sin is the turning away from love and respect toward selfish disrespect. It is something much closer to the heart than knowing and following some rule. People cannot be in relationship with others without having a sense of what respect is. Because of that Adam and Eve could understand well enough. The basic elements were present before them in their relationship with each other, with the animals and with God.

Yes God understood they would fall into sin. He took action right away as a doctor to help them. That help was the first step toward a completion of the project of creating people who overcome the tendancy to sin. It requires a process of living not just a rubber stamp creation. It requires a sacrifice of selfishness to allow respect for others to grow.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello Huckelberry,

1) Of course they fell into sin because that's how God designed them to be, and He placed Satan there to enact their introduction into sin.

2) Would you mind explaining your concept of God and how His nature would serve the Christian narrative of man, sin, and redemption?

3) Did you watch the video, and if so, what did you think of the 4th dimensional aspect of God's perspective and His creative process?

V/R
Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Gunnar
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _Gunnar »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:Jesus may not have been born on December 25th; however, he was born and he came at a dark time in world history to bring us hope & light.


Sooo... God sent Himself to be killed to save us from Himself?

The Plan of Salvation

( by Mageth )

God himself created man and woman and placed them in a garden, in “his own image”, but got righteously angry at them when they ate, against his wish, and after being tempted by a talking serpent that god himself had somehow allowed to slither about in the garden, a tasty, beautiful fruit, though he himself had placed it there but neglected to instill in his creations the knowledge of good and evil so that they would know it was wrong to eat it. Being omniscient, of course, he knew all this before he started, but was apparently unable to do anything about it because he had planned it this way from the beginning, and apparently god cannot change anything he already knows, in spite of the fact that he’s omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.

Later, God himself impregnated a virgin so that he himself could be born a human, a ManGod. This was necessary, apparently, because only his own ManGod blood could appease himself and deliver humans, who he created, and who he knew would muck things up by eating the fruit, from his own righteous anger.

Of course, he waited several thousand years to implement this divine plan, in the meantime taking the righteous action of drowning every creature on the planet except a few he could stuff on a boat. Not to mention handing down a Law that served to further condemn every one of us, and in which Law he himself had them frequently sacrifice animals to appease himself, though he knew the blood of animals didn’t really appease himself.

Much later, god, in a garden, prayed to himself to “take this cup” away from himself, though he himself knew that he himself had planned the coming events from the beginning and knew that not even he himself could save himself, even though he was god and omnipotent, omniscient, etc. Accepting this, he said, in effect, “Not my will, but my will.”

God then sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself. (or had himself sacrificed; not much of a distinction between the two, really) Before dying, he himself asked he himself why he had forsaken himself.

He himself, being dead, then raised himself from the dead less than 40 hours later, though he himself had said he’d be dead for three days and three nights, which he could do because he was still alive, and later he himself pulled himself up into heaven where he himself apparently already was, and where he himself is described as now sitting at the right hand of himself.

He himself then sent himself (or a ghost of himself, if you please) back to earth to be a comfort to us, though he himself is still sitting at the right hand of himself.

And, glory hallelujah, he himself promised that he himself will return someday, though he himself is already here, and will still be there, to snatch up those who believe the god blood sacrifice story he himself told us, and kill the rest of us who don’t believe the god blood sacrifice story, no matter how nice we were otherwise. But, since killing us isn’t enough to appease his righteousness, he himself will then judge us, though according to ManGod he himself will also not judge us, and being a god of love will cast most of us into hell for an eternity of suffering. He has to, of course, because he is a righteous, just god, and can’t figure out a way to save anyone who hasn’t been redeemed by god-blood, even though he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, and loves us all.


Yep. Makes perfect sense.

V/R
Doc

LittleNipper wrote:God is a Triune essence. Three eternal beings existing as one unit. When Christ took on a human existence, He emptied Himself of unlimited knowledge and power and placed himself in subjection to God the Heavenly Father.

Sorry, that makes even less sense than Mageth's summation.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Bazooka
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _Bazooka »

Some Schmo wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:God is a Triune essence. Three eternal beings existing as one unit.

Yes, god is like water, sometimes solid, sometimes liquid, sometimes gas. (I'm guessing the holy ghost is the gas).

It's intellectually stimulating to me to notice that the same can be said for what comes out of my ass.


Your ass is a Triune essence....hmmm....that's unpleasant. :confused:
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_LittleNipper
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _LittleNipper »

Gunnar wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
The Plan of Salvation

( by Mageth )

God himself created man and woman and placed them in a garden, in “his own image”, but got righteously angry at them when they ate, against his wish, and after being tempted by a talking serpent that god himself had somehow allowed to slither about in the garden, a tasty, beautiful fruit, though he himself had placed it there but neglected to instill in his creations the knowledge of good and evil so that they would know it was wrong to eat it. Being omniscient, of course, he knew all this before he started, but was apparently unable to do anything about it because he had planned it this way from the beginning, and apparently god cannot change anything he already knows, in spite of the fact that he’s omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.

Later, God himself impregnated a virgin so that he himself could be born a human, a ManGod. This was necessary, apparently, because only his own ManGod blood could appease himself and deliver humans, who he created, and who he knew would muck things up by eating the fruit, from his own righteous anger.

Of course, he waited several thousand years to implement this divine plan, in the meantime taking the righteous action of drowning every creature on the planet except a few he could stuff on a boat. Not to mention handing down a Law that served to further condemn every one of us, and in which Law he himself had them frequently sacrifice animals to appease himself, though he knew the blood of animals didn’t really appease himself.

Much later, god, in a garden, prayed to himself to “take this cup” away from himself, though he himself knew that he himself had planned the coming events from the beginning and knew that not even he himself could save himself, even though he was god and omnipotent, omniscient, etc. Accepting this, he said, in effect, “Not my will, but my will.”

God then sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself. (or had himself sacrificed; not much of a distinction between the two, really) Before dying, he himself asked he himself why he had forsaken himself.

He himself, being dead, then raised himself from the dead less than 40 hours later, though he himself had said he’d be dead for three days and three nights, which he could do because he was still alive, and later he himself pulled himself up into heaven where he himself apparently already was, and where he himself is described as now sitting at the right hand of himself.

He himself then sent himself (or a ghost of himself, if you please) back to earth to be a comfort to us, though he himself is still sitting at the right hand of himself.

And, glory hallelujah, he himself promised that he himself will return someday, though he himself is already here, and will still be there, to snatch up those who believe the god blood sacrifice story he himself told us, and kill the rest of us who don’t believe the god blood sacrifice story, no matter how nice we were otherwise. But, since killing us isn’t enough to appease his righteousness, he himself will then judge us, though according to ManGod he himself will also not judge us, and being a god of love will cast most of us into hell for an eternity of suffering. He has to, of course, because he is a righteous, just god, and can’t figure out a way to save anyone who hasn’t been redeemed by god-blood, even though he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, and loves us all.


Yep. Makes perfect sense.

V/R
Doc

LittleNipper wrote:God is a Triune essence. Three eternal beings existing as one unit. When Christ took on a human existence, He emptied Himself of unlimited knowledge and power and placed himself in subjection to God the Heavenly Father.

Sorry, that makes even less sense than Mageth's summation.[/quote]
The fact remains, that you exist because you were created. And both you and I exist personally as a direct end result of sin entering into God's creation thousands of years ago. This of course God knew would occur, which is why the Bible reveals that God foreknew and predestined. God allowed the Fall for His own divine purpose. And the simple fact is that NOTHING can fully comprehend GOD. That is because He is GOD. So GOD wants us to think, but even in eternity, I believe that the total nature of GOD will be beyond the comprehension of everything!
_LittleNipper
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Re: Some Questions for Atheists Regarding Christmas

Post by _LittleNipper »

Gunnar wrote:

LittleNipper wrote:God is a Triune essence. Three eternal beings existing as one unit. When Christ took on a human existence, He emptied Himself of unlimited knowledge and power and placed himself in subjection to God the Heavenly Father.

Sorry, that makes even less sense than Mageth's summation.

The fact remains, that you exist because God created. And both you and I exist personally as a direct end result of sin entering into God's creation thousands of years ago. This of course God knew would occur, which is why the Bible reveals that God foreknew and predestined. God allowed the Fall for His own divine purpose. And the simple fact is that NOTHING can fully comprehend GOD. That is because He is GOD. So GOD wants us to think, but even in eternity, I believe that the total nature of GOD will be beyond the comprehension of everything!
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