Open question to John Dehlin ???

[_fetchface]

What I don't get is bill reels love fest over at nom

You probably also have trouble understanding why it is impolite to fart in an elevator.

[_Mayan Elephant]

be very interested in a comparison between my scholarly contributions and those of DCP -- just for fun. Note that I'm only 5.5 years into my graduate work.

There is no question that you are working toward your new career and even producing something as you do that.

But for now let's stick to the topic at hand. First the OP- are you being exed?

Then to the suggestions in the thread that your work has led to the changes at the MI and to the essays from otterson.

I stand by my comments. You have not published any original historical information that would have led to the essays. Are any of the links you provided of a historical nature? Something along the lines of quinn or Compton?

As for DCP, I will do some more work. I was not limiting my comments to "scholarly" stuff. Is it your belief that these publications are the reason that you are being excommunucated?

See John, as I have said before, the publications and interviews you provide are interesting and they are the backbone of a great venture. I acknowledge that. Only now, it seems that the foundation is about supporting you (financially and more) as the celebrity self-appointed martyr, and you are confusing the results of your public antics (pissing off King and getting exed for the umpteenth time) and the effects of real people who are effecting the church from the outside or with original work.

[_mormonstories]

Reposting from another thread:

Re: the essays -- In my public statements (like here: http://mormonstories.org/mormon-stories ... ar-update/) I am very careful to list MS as only one of many influences on the church over time, and I mention the following by name specifically as examples: B. H. Roberts, Dialogue, Sunstone, Mormon History Association, John Whitmer, the entire Bloggernacle, and courageous church employees.

That said, I know for a fact that the "Why Mormons Question" study (http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/2012/ ... -analysis/) had an influence on the essays (in some way, shape, or form) because we:

1) Presented the results directly to Marlin Jensen in New York City with Hans Mattsson something like 2 years before the essays came out.
2) Marlin Jensen was so affected by the survey results that he personally asked us to come to CHQ and present our results directly to the managing directors of the church's main departments (PR, Missionary, Curriculum, etc.). When I say us, I don't mean to imply that I attended this meaning, but a member of our team certainly did attend and present our findings.
3) We have been told by people at the church that this study was influential as a PART of helping to get internal approval for the essays, or to shape the topics/content of the essays.

And when I say "We" -- there was a pretty big team of people that worked on the WMQ study, some of which were way more influential than I was.

Anyway, I believe that our work with MS and WMQ was most certainly only part of the overall influence, but that it certainly was part of the influence. I could be wrong of course. And I don't mention this so much to try to take credit, but to encourage others to believe/feel like they can make a difference if they try. I believe that individuals can make a difference (e.g., John Larsen, John Hamer, Kate Kelly, Lindsay Hansen Park, Quinn, Compton, Bushman, Metcalfe, Polygamy Porter, etc.) -- and I hope that our readers and listeners know/believe this, and become motivated to try to be part of the solution.

[_Mayan Elephant]

Thanks John. The problem I see with this narrative is that the actual results of your meetings and presentations was your return to church, disparaging of the DAMU, disparaging the MS communities, baptizing your son, and saying that being inside the church was the better place to raise your family and the better place to affect the church for change.

Do I have the timeline correct?

[Guest]

ME - I don't know if I'm being ex'd, but I know that Pres. King has threatened me with a disciplinary council multiple times (starting in June 2014). Not completely sure why he hasn't gone through with it yet (I clearly have theories), but I've been given the indication that it is imminent. I believe that I embarrassed him when it was acknowledged that he had never attempted to meet with me prior to his June letter, and that this likely forced him to hold off and to make it appear as though he was giving me a chance to repent (after his August terms of continued membership -- which Margi and I declined within a week). But we'll see in the coming month or two if he moves.

Regarding your claims that I'm attempting to get excommunicated -- all I can say is that to me, there's a difference between trying to stand firm in my public position, and intentionally seeking excommunication.

My sincere belief is that LDS church members should be able to: 1) openly disbelieve church teachings, 2) openly criticize church leaders, 3) support same-sex marriage, and 4) support things like Ordain Women -- without being disciplined. Those are the types of things I've been doing out in the open for years (long before King..and even while I was active in the church) -- and they are the specific reasons that President King has told me that I am now unworthy to remain in good standing with the church (even though prior Stake President Mark Jensen allowed me to baptize and confirm my son with the exact same positions). Anyway, the acts that you accuse me of using to bait excommunication are the types of acts that I've been publicly engaging in for 10 years...in one way or another (acknowledging that my tone and relationship to the church have shifted wildly back and forth over time). But in my mind/heart - even those wild shifts have been sincere. I really, really wanted to make the church work. I began Mormon Stories being very inspired by Lowell Bennion and Eugene England -- and MS in many ways was a 10 year attempt to try to fix what was ultimately unfixable. I'm not ashamed that I tried, and I'm not ashamed that I vacillated. I now beleive that this is a very human reaction.

You are right. I'm not a historian. But I do know that we (the Why Mormons Question) team were influential re: the Essays in some way, shape, or form. See the previous post for why I believe this.

I know that I was a part of the events that led to the expulsion of DP from he MI -- but I only claim to be a part. I am sure that he had it coming for a long time. My guess is that my involvement was perhaps only a spark that led to the eventual flame -- but I do think that I was at least a small part of the events that led to his expulsion. "Sparks" are often required for fires, you know. I'm fine if you don't agree. I should add that several other people played very important and influential roles in his ouster -- far more influential than mine. I believe that the decision was approved from the top, and that Bradford deserves the badge of honor.

Finally, I don't apologize for raising financial support for the work I do. Everyone has to make a living. Some do construction. Some do fast food. Some are teachers. etc.

If folks are willing to support the Open Stories Foundation/MS/me financially because they think that I'm/we're able to help people -- then I consider that to be honest and honorable income. Non-profits all over America do this every day. If folks didn't find what I do valuable to them, they wouldn't donate. So as long as they do, I'm willing to help. As soon as they don't find what I do valuable, I'll go do something else very happily. I worked for Bain, Microsoft, and MIT before, and I can find other gainful employ.

All the best.

[_mormonstories]

Thanks John. The problem I see with this narrative is that the actual results of your meetings and presentations was your return to church, disparaging of the DAMU, disparaging the MS communities, baptizing your son, and saying that being inside the church was the better place to raise your family and the better place to affect the church for change.

Do I have the timeline correct?

Not sure about the timeline, but I certainly have gone back and forth in my feelings towards the church and towards ex-Mormonism, and the communities. I've been super public about all that. I've tried to make amends where I feel I have made mistakes. But in my mind/heart, I've tried to do what I felt was right at the time. I've screwed up before, and I will again. But I will keep trying to get it right.

[_kairos]

John answers-open and honest-see mormonstories above.

thanx john

[_RockSlider]

Dang, isn't it a cool time! Look how much has changed in the last 10 years.

John Dehlin is the public prototype if, as a born in the blue Mormon, you want a preview of whats ahead for you as your shelf crashes.

StayLds? yes, family friends, work ... must stay, sure cafeteria Mormon will work. Uggh, the pain, the diets not working, out ya go. Hey the spirits still here, maybe it's true and I need back in. Nope that was not it ... out, gain experience and empathy for others, maybe I can be of more help in. Nope, lets dedicate my life, my work thus far to helping others get out.

Go John go!

ME I would suggest that any complaints you currently have about John Dehlin would be a doubt (and insult) to John Dehlin's integrity to his currently stated, rest of life goal.

John Dehlin from what I've seen, you are wasting your time with ME.

[_kairos]

bump for exposure for john's answer

[_Tobin]

I've never understood this excommunication thing over beliefs. Is it a Utah thing?

For example, I believe the LDS Church is a man-made organization. The leadership of the LDS Church is not inspired nor do they speak for God. Since the LDS Church is a man-made organization, I really don't see a problem with it changing its policies towards same-sex couple marriages and ordaining women to their clergy. And I've expressed these views in Church, to my Bishop and to my Stake President. I live in Las Vegas Nevada and no-one has ever brought up the notion of my excommunication. They are just glad when I show up to Church, which is rare because I find it boring and don't accept much of the nonsense taught there.