"Evidences of the Book of Mormon" Deseret News

[_Tobin]

The claim is the leaders of the LDS Church speak for God and that the Book of Mormon came from Gold Plates.

Fine.

If the LDS Church leaders really do speak with God, then let them ask him to return the plates. Then people will believe them and have good reason to do so. Until then, they are full of it and people should point that out to them.

[_sock puppet]

The significant phrase in all of this is, "allow room for faith". That is all any of the posters at MD&D can hope for and it is pathetically weak.

I'm wondering how many TBMs can stand on the head of one pin? That's all the 'footprint' left in the "room for faith", and its shrinking with each advance in scientific knowledge and development of history. Human ignorance is what 'allows room for faith'. As mankind keeps developing more and more information, it's getting rather claustrophobic in the 'room for faith.'

[_Zadok]

It is rather sad to sit here Sunday morning and realize how thoroughly and easily the religion to which I have devoted most of my life is debunked as a hoax and a fraud. The bright spot is at least I won't die expecting to have to give special handshakes and tokens to angel gatekeepers.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

It seems the author of the article has a vested financial interest in people believing the Book of Mormon is historical....

http://bountifultravel.com/december-12- ... mon-lands/

Bring your family and Join Taylor and Lisa Halverson on a Christmas Book of Mormon Cruise. Take your family on an amazing cruise adventure to the proposed lands of the Book of Mormon this Christmas. Stops on this itinerary include Honduras, Belize and Mexico. This is a great time of year to cruise to the Caribbean with nice weather and a great itinerary. You will visit some of the most amazing ruins that can be seen from a cruise itinerary, including Lamanai, Chaccoben and Tulum. After years of experimenting, we have put together unique, adventurous and cultural shore excursions. Taylor will help bring the scriptures to life as he teaches onboard the ship. We have excellent local guides take us through the sites. Great guides, great speakers and a great itinerary. Join us for beautiful weather, uplifting presentations, and a cruise to remember.

His Deseret News article is no more than a badly disguised effort at paying for his families Chirstmas vacation advertising his tour.

The page suggests there will be alcohol served on the ship:

On your way you’ll find onboard spots designed for your palate, whether you prefer to be wined — check out Jeanne’s Wine Bar, or dined — direct your taste buds to the Washington or Lincoln dining rooms… or even Scarlett’s Steakhouse. Let yourself be swept away to the Dream Bar for a drink, or get carried away rooting for your favorites at the Bronx Bar.

I would need to be full of the spirit of Captain Morgan to follow this fool around Mexico.

[_sock puppet]

It seems the author of the article has a vested financial interest in people believing the Book of Mormon is historical....

http://bountifultravel.com/december-12- ... mon-lands/

Bring your family and Join Taylor and Lisa Halverson on a Christmas Book of Mormon Cruise. Take your family on an amazing cruise adventure to the proposed lands of the Book of Mormon this Christmas. Stops on this itinerary include Honduras, Belize and Mexico. This is a great time of year to cruise to the Caribbean with nice weather and a great itinerary. You will visit some of the most amazing ruins that can be seen from a cruise itinerary, including Lamanai, Chaccoben and Tulum. After years of experimenting, we have put together unique, adventurous and cultural shore excursions. Taylor will help bring the scriptures to life as he teaches onboard the ship. We have excellent local guides take us through the sites. Great guides, great speakers and a great itinerary. Join us for beautiful weather, uplifting presentations, and a cruise to remember.

His Deseret News article is no more than a badly disguised effort at paying for his families Chirstmas vacation advertising his tour.

The page suggests there will be alcohol served on the ship:

On your way you’ll find onboard spots designed for your palate, whether you prefer to be wined — check out Jeanne’s Wine Bar, or dined — direct your taste buds to the Washington or Lincoln dining rooms… or even Scarlett’s Steakhouse. Let yourself be swept away to the Dream Bar for a drink, or get carried away rooting for your favorites at the Bronx Bar.

I would need to be full of the spirit of Captain Morgan to follow this fool around Mexico.

CM is one of the few rums I like drinking straight. I quite like the taste. And it makes me more outgoing and comedic. I think a case of CM could make the Mexico tour interesting. Without it, the tour would be insufferable.

[_mackay11]

There is at thread on the MD&D forum discussing this very issue. Here are the top 10 proofs:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wnB-Hh4mM8hEAPrKj9tV5gmH8_7U-v4MkFZb5rmjCFM/edit?pli=1

Would have done a cut and paste for the above if the code allowed it. You will just have to click it for yourself and be overwhelmed by the depth of proof.

For what it is worth, here is the MD&D thread: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64722-top-10-bullseyes-for-the-book-of-mormon-in-old-and-new-world/

Always nice to get a shoutout.

In the interest of absolute transparency, that's my list. Brant Gardner has raised some fair concerns in the discussion about the risks of a bullseye list at all.

The doc was created by me to answer a question from a friend. He'd been studying the historicity of the Book of Mormon and had said "case closed" that it was a modern text. I replied that while I agreed that it was almost certainly a modern text, there were just enough in the way of "bullseyes" to make me not quite cross the line of absolute certainty. He challenged me to compile the list of best "bullseyes." I've picked them based on what I personally consider to be the best (and most accessible) ones.

We're now in the process of trying to work through each of them. I'm trying to help him be intellectually responsible and pointing out some of the flaws in his arguments against the bullseyes. It's a useful exercise.

[_Dr. Shades]

He'd been studying the historicity of the Book of Mormon and had said "case closed" that it was a modern text.

So, what are his "bull's eyes" that make him believe it's a modern text, and how do you rebut them?

[_Equality]

There is at thread on the MD&D forum discussing this very issue. Here are the top 10 proofs:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wnB-Hh4mM8hEAPrKj9tV5gmH8_7U-v4MkFZb5rmjCFM/edit?pli=1

Would have done a cut and paste for the above if the code allowed it. You will just have to click it for yourself and be overwhelmed by the depth of proof.

For what it is worth, here is the MD&D thread: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64722-top-10-bullseyes-for-the-book-of-mormon-in-old-and-new-world/

Always nice to get a shoutout.

In the interest of absolute transparency, that's my list. Brant Gardner has raised some fair concerns in the discussion about the risks of a bullseye list at all.

The doc was created by me to answer a question from a friend. He'd been studying the historicity of the Book of Mormon and had said "case closed" that it was a modern text. I replied that while I agreed that it was almost certainly a modern text, there were just enough in the way of "bullseyes" to make me not quite cross the line of absolute certainty. He challenged me to compile the list of best "bullseyes." I've picked them based on what I personally consider to be the best (and most accessible) ones.

We're now in the process of trying to work through each of them. I'm trying to help him be intellectually responsible and pointing out some of the flaws in his arguments against the bullseyes. It's a useful exercise.

So the "Top 10 Evidences" are only 7? And one of those is the use of cement? Pretty weak sauce. Tolworthy pretty well decimated the "cement as evidence" claim years ago. Have you not read it? Why act like no one has addressed the claim before?
http://exmormon.org.uk/tol_arch/atozelph/cement.htm

Beastie also addressed what 19th-century Americans knew about cement in ancient America:
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/cement.html

[_mackay11]

He'd been studying the historicity of the Book of Mormon and had said "case closed" that it was a modern text.

So, what are his "bull's eyes" that make him believe it's a modern text, and how do you rebut them?

Maybe you assume I'm an apologist. I'm not. I'm "almost certain" the Book of Mormon is a modern text. I drop short of saying I'm certain because I let go of spiritual certainties a year or so ago (or maybe 2) during my faith transition.

The main evidences against are the fact that the vast majority of the Book of Mormon content can be attributed to creative remixing from Joseph's environment. Books like KJV Bible, Late War, View of the Hebrews, Biblical Archaeology, Antiquities of the Jews, The natural and aboriginal history of Tennessee. Add in recent political events, circuit preachers, Methodist hymns, Samuel Mitchell.

[_mackay11]

So the "Top 10 Evidences" are only 7? And one of those is the use of cement? Pretty weak sauce. Tolworthy pretty well decimated the "cement as evidence" claim years ago. Have you not read it? Why act like no one has addressed the claim before?
http://exmormon.org.uk/tol_arch/atozelph/cement.htm

Beastie also addressed what 19th-century Americans knew about cement in ancient America:
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/cement.html

You'll see that Brant Gardner has already called me out on that. It's not just cement, it's cement relative to a viable internal geography. Cement on its own is indeed "weak sauce" but cement as part of a much broader viable geography (Sorensen and Gardner) is more impressive. Has anyone talked the entirety of Sorenson's geography or just cherry picked?