DiscussMormonism.com

Hi Mak!

Maksutov wrote:
As time goes by I turn increasingly to the position that I do *not* want people to just give up their religious beliefs. Many people get good things from religion, in cultures all over the world. We need to understand what and why. The greatest genocides of the last hundred years were perpetrated by people who claimed to be hostile to religion and basing their values and decisions on rationality. The millions who died from democide via Communism can't be waved away.

I would like people to question their beliefs and the institutions they interact with, expect them to be more reasonable, more transparent, less manipulative--to be better. I don't think that religion usually is helpful to the seriously mentally ill; there are too many religious ideas and practices that get in the way of effective treatment of many of these people.

It's the tendency of secular liberals to focus on the belief system and the corporate form of the institution of the religion, and miss one of religion's greatest and more immutable features: a basis for identity. When your tribe and your religion are entwined, you are always a hero in a vast cosmic drama that vindicates you and your family and friends. That's very powerful. Religion is not a belief so much as a binding. Ideology is more than a paint job on identity, but it isn't organic and essential like identity is.

Thanks for a very thoughtful contribution.
Appreciated!

Since you authored it while quoting my post, I do have a question - if I may?

My post was about faith - You used the word "religion" several times and you also used the phrase "institutions they interact with."

While I freely admit that religion and faith can be (and often are) very similar fibers that make up the same cloth, I do not think that religion and faith - in the context of the recent discussion taking place in this thread - are the same and to consider the possibility that they are indeed different is, at the very least, worth adding to this evolving discussion.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Ceeboo wrote:Hi Mak!

Maksutov wrote:
As time goes by I turn increasingly to the position that I do *not* want people to just give up their religious beliefs. Many people get good things from religion, in cultures all over the world. We need to understand what and why. The greatest genocides of the last hundred years were perpetrated by people who claimed to be hostile to religion and basing their values and decisions on rationality. The millions who died from democide via Communism can't be waved away.

I would like people to question their beliefs and the institutions they interact with, expect them to be more reasonable, more transparent, less manipulative--to be better. I don't think that religion usually is helpful to the seriously mentally ill; there are too many religious ideas and practices that get in the way of effective treatment of many of these people.

It's the tendency of secular liberals to focus on the belief system and the corporate form of the institution of the religion, and miss one of religion's greatest and more immutable features: a basis for identity. When your tribe and your religion are entwined, you are always a hero in a vast cosmic drama that vindicates you and your family and friends. That's very powerful. Religion is not a belief so much as a binding. Ideology is more than a paint job on identity, but it isn't organic and essential like identity is.

Thanks for a very thoughtful contribution.
Appreciated!

Since you authored it while quoting my post, I do have a question - if I may?

My post was about faith - You used the word "religion" several times and you also used the phrase "institutions they interact with."

While I freely admit that religion and faith can be (and often are) very similar fibers that make up the same cloth, I do not think that religion and faith - in the context of the recent discussion taking place in this thread - are the same and to consider the possibility that they are indeed different is, at the very least, worth adding to this evolving discussion.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Good points, Ceeboo. It becomes more and more difficult to define these terms because we continue to expand on them. It's always worth taking the time to try to clarify. "Religion" is hard to define and each religion/faith/belief system is hard to define. I suspect each person creates their own synthesis and that changes over time.

I'm not sure what the deal is with the DNews comments section. I've commented on a few articles lately and they keep putting them On Hold and they never post. They can't deny them I guess because I haven't actually violated their policy. I wonder if they even know how chicken this type of censorship is? Maybe. Maybe not.

Ceeboo wrote:Hey Q!

Quasi wrote: Faith is greatly overrated.

Perhaps.
It seems that it is also greatly misunderstood.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Hi Pal!

Sorry to be so late in response, but I wanted to think a little before I answered.

I've wondered for many years what the real meaning of faith actually is. The Bible defines faith as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

People often talk about faith in a very positive way. "Faith is the answer in desperate times". "Have faith that all will be well". "Without faith there can be no hope".

Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that doubt is much better at helping a person decide what path to take than faith is.

I think that faith is something you attempt to believe because it is something that is taught to you by others. You are taking the word of some other person (who may or may not be holier than you) that what they are telling you should be believed as true. From this we get cults, polygamy, the crusades, slavery, religious wars, the inquisition, torture and terrorist acts.

I agree that there are many good things that are done through faith, but that doesn't negate the fact that faith is a very poor standard to build your life on. One has to determine which faith is correct, if any. Healthy skepticism and doubt are much more helpful and dependable for this.

Please see my new sig line.

I'm finding it hard to differentiate between what is meant by:
Faith
Wishful Thinking
Wilful Blindness

Can someone help?

Bazooka wrote:I'm finding it hard to differentiate between what is meant by:
Faith
Wishful Thinking
Wilful Blindness

Can someone help?

I think they may be interchangeable. You may also want to add religion to that list.

Quasimodo wrote:I've wondered for many years what the real meaning of faith actually is. The Bible defines faith as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

People often talk about faith in a very positive way. "Faith is the answer in desperate times". "Have faith that all will be well". "Without faith there can be no hope".

Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that doubt is much better at helping a person decide what path to take than faith is.

I think that faith is something you attempt to believe because it is something that is taught to you by others. You are taking the word of some other person (who may or may not be holier than you) that what they are telling you should be believed as true. From this we get cults, polygamy, the crusades, slavery, religious wars, the inquisition, torture and terrorist acts.

I agree that there are many good things that are done through faith, but that doesn't negate the fact that faith is a very poor standard to build your life on. One has to determine which faith is correct, if any. Healthy skepticism and doubt are much more helpful and dependable for this.

Quasimodo. It seems to me that the word faith is used with a variety of different meanings. If that is true then it may be possible that different meanings might have different objective value.

I am able to chuckle at the Twain version, I respect doubt enough that I think I recognize the criticism. However one possible meaning of faith is the relationship between spouses. I am faithful, I have faith my spouse is faithful. Lets not apply the Twain version here.

There may be times of threat when people use the word faith to refer to having the courage to hold together and make effective effort to overcome danger instead of giving up. That also is a good faith. It would be a bad faith to hold blindly to a belief that you are safe when signs of danger appear.

Faith is sometimes used to refer to a particular collection of beliefs. It is normal to consider the quality of that form of faith to be a result of the quality of the beliefs. It would make sense to judge the distinction as clearly as one is able I think.

You started with the definition in Hebrews which to my mind might be a little tricky. The only meaning I can find in the words is an expression that the author sees faith in Jesus in the first century to be enough of a surprise as to indicate divine origin or cause behind the event of faith happening in the believers mind. I suspect that sort of witness might be seen as less than conclusive. But to understand the author of Hebrews it should be noted that in the first century people starting to believe in Jesus was not the event now of people believing what their family and community has believed for centuries upon centuries. In the fist century it was a striking change for which the authors sees a cause, God.

For me I see a positive meaning in holding to the best values and hopes that I am aware of. That meaning combines a bit of Hebrews comment with courage and conscience. I like that version because it allows for doubt thought and evaluation. I realize not all use of the word in religious contexts match this But I do think I am pointing to the best intention.

Hi, huckelberry!

huckelberry wrote:
Quasimodo. It seems to me that the word faith is used with a variety of different meanings. If that is true then it may be possible that different meanings might have different objective value.

That's true. Faith can also mean loyalty like in the Marine motto "Semper Fidelis" (always faithful) or the once popular dog name "Fido" (I trust). Speaking of that, faith can also mean trust as in "I have faith in that guy" (I trust him).

It can also mean a particular religious denomination or philosophy as in the early 70's cliché "Keep the Faith". It has so many uses that it may have become meaningless.

I think that Twain wanted you to chuckle a little, but I also think that, through his humor, he wanted you to see the wisdom of his little joke.

(Hebrews 11:1) "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" is a little vague, but the last phrase "evidence of things not seen" may be the clue. Believe, even without evidence, and all will be well, doesn't work for me.

Too many evil things have been done with that statement in mind.

Quasimodo wrote:
Hi Pal!

Hello friend!

Sorry to be so late in response, but I wanted to think a little before I answered.

No problem.

I think that faith is something you attempt to believe because it is something that is taught to you by others.

To me, this sounds a lot like religion or ism's.

You are taking the word of some other person (who may or may not be holier than you) that what they are telling you should be believed as true. From this we get cults, polygamy, the crusades, slavery, religious wars, the inquisition, torture and terrorist acts.

Fair points (but to me it still sounds like you're talking about religions/ism's)

I agree that there are many good things that are done through faith

I'm sorry (I really am as it is not my intention to be dismissive to your thoughts and/or redundant with my responses) but - in my mind - you continue to speak about religions/institutions/ism's.

As it seems we may be talking past each other (perhaps not?) let me try to elaborate a bit and offer the below example:

There are indeed many good things done through religious institutions and/or Christian denominations (Food drives, help with natural disasters all over the globe, soup kitchens, unwed mother shelters, etc, etc)

But...... How are there many good things done (or even one single good thing done) through my personal faith - my sincere belief in a Creator?

but that doesn't negate the fact that faith is a very poor standard to build your life on.

This is an opinion, yes? (I'm asking because you used the word "fact")

One has to determine which faith is correct

Absolutely not!

Have you made any determinations about what is correct concerning a Creator/God?
If not then why would you suggest that I must make any?

Healthy skepticism and doubt are much more helpful and dependable for this.

Do you think that because I have faith that I have no doubts and/or do not think healthy skepticism is of great value?

Please see my new sig line.

I LOVE IT!

Peace,
Ceeboo

Ceeboo wrote:

Quasimodo wrote:
Hi Pal!

Hello friend!

Sorry to be so late in response, but I wanted to think a little before I answered.

No problem.

I think that faith is something you attempt to believe because it is something that is taught to you by others.

To me, this sounds a lot like religion or ism's.

You are taking the word of some other person (who may or may not be holier than you) that what they are telling you should be believed as true. From this we get cults, polygamy, the crusades, slavery, religious wars, the inquisition, torture and terrorist acts.

Fair points (but to me it still sounds like you're talking about religions/ism's)

I agree that there are many good things that are done through faith

I'm sorry (I really am as it is not my intention to be dismissive to your thoughts and/or redundant with my responses) but - in my mind - you continue to speak about religions/institutions/ism's.

As it seems we may be talking past each other (perhaps not?) let me try to elaborate a bit and offer the below example:

There are indeed many good things done through religious institutions and/or Christian denominations (Food drives, help with natural disasters all over the globe, soup kitchens, unwed mother shelters, etc, etc)

But...... How are there many good things done (or even one single good thing done) through my personal faith - my sincere belief in a Creator?

but that doesn't negate the fact that faith is a very poor standard to build your life on.

This is an opinion, yes? (I'm asking because you used the word "fact")

One has to determine which faith is correct

Absolutely not!

Have you made any determinations about what is correct concerning a Creator/God?
If not then why would you suggest that I must make any?

Healthy skepticism and doubt are much more helpful and dependable for this.

Do you think that because I have faith that I have no doubts and/or do not think healthy skepticism is of great value?

Please see my new sig line.

I LOVE IT!

Peace,
Ceeboo

Thanks for the response, Pal!

This is a conversation that I would love to have with you. There are many definitions of the word faith (see above post). It might be good for you to tell me what you feel it means before we continue.