Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

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_Kishkumen
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:I thought that the apologists, and Brandt Garner comes to mind here, typically argued just as Bokovoy -- for the sake of making a limited geography viable -- that the Book of Mormon was a narrative history that has little to do with the way the diseased American history profession understands history? Thus, numbers in battle were exaggerated etc., and it's only the beam in the eye of the critic -- the misguided obsession with the enlightenment -- that has a problem with this.


Well, perhaps the apologists would offer the following retort, "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

But in all seriousness, we have, I believe, entered the realms of human psychology and sociology, areas in which I am afraid I have very little to say. Thank you, Dean Robbers, for exposing the depth of inconsistency in Gee's position du jour. One could hope that this phenomenon would dawn on more of his readers, but, alas, they seem to be as of yet impervious to the evidence.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_aussieguy55
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _aussieguy55 »

Would have been interesting if the writer of Exodus had named the Pharaoh. Also in the Book of Abraham not "King Pharaoh" but Pharaoh "name".

Do you believe contra that Jericho had walls?

Do you justify if true the mass killings by Joshua of the peoples? Do you believe the stones from heaven story? Joshua today would hauled up before the International Court of the Hague.
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »



Wow, just wow! Is it just me, or is the "scholarship" (and I use that term loosely) of Gee and Peterson becoming more and more horrendously embarrassing?

There is no doubt that if Professor Robert Ritner happened to read Gee's latest, he would feel a deep sense of shame.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Gee is a clown. Two decades of his work on the literal historicity of the Book of Abraham went straight down the crapper with one fell essay from the Church's website.

He's a man without a cause now. Mopologetics defined DCP and Gee for so long that now they are literally lost in a sea of true scholarship.

We've met the enemy and truly it was Gee and Peterson.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Symmachus
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _Symmachus »

The Gay Research Professor of Egyptology wrote:Bokovoy's larger argument is that members of the Church need not view their scriptures as historical, because, after all, the Israelites did not see their scriptures as historical. He sees Latter-day Saints who view their scriptures as historical as holding a problematic view


Like an average Freshman in a first-year composition course, Gee does a mediocre job demolishing an argument that his opponent doesn't actually make.

Bokovoy argues that Biblical books are not about propositional faith (to borrow a theological term), i.e. whether or not the stories they tell really happened is not their primary concern. They are thus not history at all.

Gee, on the other hand, wants to argue that Israelite writers and readers had a very similar conception of history to that of modern Mormons. But he seems oblivious to the fact that the citations from the Books of Kings he musters for his position actually argue against that position. Picking at random one of those citations:

"And the rest of the acts of Amaziah, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?" (2 Kings 14:18)

Gee wants this to be evidence that the Israelite writer of 2 Kings conceived of history much like a college-educated, tithe-paying Mormon: you assemble sources and cite them in the process of making your argument. Therefore, for Gee, the Israelite writer and his readers were just as concerned that the deeds of Amaziah actually happened as recounted in 2 Kings as believing Mormons are that 1 Nephi happened as Nephi says it did. This is why, for Gee, the writer of 2 Kings references the "book of chronicles" (whatever that means): it's a footnote, as it were, that supports his argument by referring to an authoritative source. Thus are the facts established and every Israelite can go on believing that Amaziah was a true king. And that 2 Kings is a true book. And that Judah was a true bronze age polity.

But if you read this in context, this isn't a citation meant to support a historiographical argument; it's a signal that the Amaziah story in Kings should not be read annalistically because it is not going to give a full account of Amaziah's deeds--go to the annals for that--and his very long reign (25 years) in fact gets a cursory treatment (20 verses maybe?). The only thing that matters in the 2 Kings account is what happens to an Israelite king when he starts worshiping Edomite idols.

The Amaziah episode is, in sum, a morality tale about worshiping the wrong god(s). It doesn't depend on the putative annals; pace Gee, this is a not a case of a historian citing his source to support an argument. What this verse shows is that the Israelite writer is consciously eschewing the Israelite conventions of history (annalistic as it seems to have been) for some other, non-historical purpose--which is exactly what Bokovoy says. Did the Israelite writer believe the events surrounding Amaziah really happened? Probably, but that is not his main objective. A closer reading of the texts that Gee cites shows that they support Bokovoy's reading, not Gee's.

More generally, Bokovoy's argument that historicity shouldn't be the primary concern of devotional readers is hardly a secular position. And thus we see the comic irony of the whole Maxwell Institute melee: the supposedly secular academics who run it now are being attacked for pushing new, non-historical readings that actually provide an intellectual space for theological readings, and their attackers are the supposedly faithful traditional FARMSians who, it turns out, think the only valid way to read these texts is through the same Rankean, positivist lens that we would expect from Richard Dawkins, not faithful priesthood holders--except, of course, when post-modernism becomes more convenient, as Gadianton reminds us.

Bokovoy is trying to construct new ways to think about the Book of Mormon theologically; and FARMSians insist that the only proper way is to read it empirically.

So, I ask you, who are the real secularists here?
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _Kishkumen »

Thank you for this excellent contribution, Symmachus. You explained Gee's anachronistic interpretation of the "citations" very well.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_moksha
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _moksha »

Dr. Bokovoy seems to be only a symbolic target in this barrage.

Wish the heavy artillery and apologetic ordinance could be trained on "malevolent stalkers". Without even naming Dr. Scratch, the LDS apologetic blogs on Patheos.com could build a world wide following just by dedicating their purpose to the elimination of malevolent stalkers everywhere. A motto could include the promise to followers that they could breath easier at night and avoid the crinkly sound from wearing aluminum foil.
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_Zadok
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _Zadok »

moksha wrote:Wish the heavy artillery and apologetic ordinance could be trained on "malevolent stalkers". Without even naming Dr. Scratch, the LDS apologetic blogs on Patheos.com could build a world wide following just by dedicating their purpose to the elimination of malevolent stalkers everywhere.
Careful there my flightless feathered friend. I was hoping that Dan Peterson could go quietly into forced retirement. If you give him hope and purpose we could be in for a long winter....
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_Symmachus
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _Symmachus »

Kishkumen wrote:Thank you for this excellent contribution, Symmachus. You explained Gee's anachronistic interpretation of the "citations" very well.


You are too kind, Kishkumen. It is an honor even to be noticed by one of the premier Jareditists of our time.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_Tom
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Re: Latest Mopologetic Attack on Bokovoy

Post by _Tom »

I notice that Bokovoy has posted several responses to Gee. See here, here, and here. In the second post, Bokovoy begins a look at "a work that has gained quite a bit of attention with conservative Bible-believing groups, Kenneth Anderson Kitchen’s On the Reliability of the Old Testament." Kitchen, of course, is the "much more experienced and distinguished scholar of the ancient Near East," to use Gee's recent description.

I found these lines in a recent post of Gee's worth considering in this discussion: "Craig Blomberg is an inerrantist. I am not. Blomberg still takes a more skeptical view of biblical historicity than I do." Blomberg, a professor of the New Testament at Denver Seminary, is co-author (with Stephen Robinson) of How Wide the Divide: A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation and author of, among other works, Can We Still Believe the Bible?: An Evangelical Engagement with Contemporary Questions.

*Edited to add a link to a new post*
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac
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