A Siege Mentality?

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_Kishkumen
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Re: A Siege Mentality?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Dr. Shades wrote:
DCP wrote:. . . we had agreed that the Institute would add a Mormon studies function — a deliberate, intentional, institutional outreach to non-LDS scholars — to the functions for which the Institute had been created and built up until that time. This was perfectly all right with me. It was, actually, something I had long wanted the Institute to do. . . That option was already open to the Institute. It had always been open both to the Institute and to individual Mormon scholars, and the Institute could easily have fostered such activity without the upheavals and unpleasantness that in fact occurred.

Does this mean that scholars like David Bokovoy with views like David Bokovoy's would've been welcome at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute of Religious Scholarship?

If so, do recent goings-on bear that out?


This is an excellent question, and one that was at the forefront of my mind when I read DCP's piece.

If the old Book of Mormon Roundtable, which was exiled from BYU campus in response to the protests of more conservative LDS scholars, is any indication, I would have to say, "no."

That said, the Interpreter did publish a piece by David Bokovoy. The thing is, David, being the good mensch he is, submitted something suitable for that venue. So, I don't think it is accurate to say they would not publish David the person. It would probably be accurate to say that they would not publish the views which they have recently attacked.

Would that they were only attacking his views, and not falsely attributing to him views in what could be interpreted as an attempt to get him in trouble with the LDS Church.

But this was not your point. Your point, which deserves more consideration, is that, for all of DCP's protestations that he is open to multiple approaches to Book of Mormon scholarship, he would not have been open, and, in fact, his friends have been quite hostile to what they have dubbed the "secular" approach to Book of Mormon scholarship.

The old Book of Mormon Roundtable had such participants as Princeton's Professor Elaine Pagels, no doubt a scholar who is not to be counted among the believers. It was supported by the distinguished Professor Richard Bushman, who is so counted. Yet, it was kicked off of BYU campus, and my understanding is that it is likely that FARMS participants were instrumental in seeing the roundtable ejected from BYU.

I don't think one can suppose that either liberals' or non-believers' views, which may not accord with the conservative LDS interpretation, would be allowed. And this is what makes DCP's statement so odd. He and his friends have a veritable meltdown over Ben Park's essay, identifying it as the harbinger of a secularist Maxwell Institute, and yet now we are to believe that DCP is open to all kinds of approaches. I guess so long as they don't venture into Ben Park or, worse yet, David Bokovoy territory.

With all of the hair-splitting, equivocation, and misrepresentation coming from the classic-FARMS camp, I can't help but think this is some kind of rhetorical scramble to find some way of reviving old FARMS.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Bazooka
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Re: A Siege Mentality?

Post by _Bazooka »

It's amazing that anything and everything written about the Maxwell Institute is really all about Dan.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Fence Sitter
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Re: A Siege Mentality?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Zadok wrote:I have a question. Who would define what constitutes a "Non-LDS Scholar"? And isn't it rather arrogant of any of them to assume that a legitimate non-LDS scholar would have anything whatsoever to do with researching or validating the LDS claims regarding the Book of Mormon, History of the Americas, the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith's visionary claims. I just have a difficult time with any credible scholar having anything to do with this fraud.


While I cannot think of any non LDS scholar whose work as a whole lends support to LDS claims (certainly if any came to that conclusion they would convert) there are a lot of credible scholars, who are not LDS, who have an interest in LDS history and Mormonism in general. If you look at work done on the Book of Abraham there may be as much on it done by non-LDS as there is by LDS scholars. Since it is Egyptian papyri, it has attracted the attention of numerous non LDS Egyptologist such as Robert Ritner, Klaus Bauer, Lanny Bell, Marc Coenen, John Wilson and so on.

Also a lot of scholarly historical work has been done by those who used to be LDS or for some reason or another have affiliated with LDS enough to generate an interest in the field such as:

Dale Morgan - Ex LDS
Fawn Brodie - Ex LDS
Jan Shipps - not LDS
Robert Flanders - RLDS
Will Bageley -Ex LDS
Brent Metcalfe- Ex LDS
John G Turner - Not LDS
Michael Quinn - Ex LDS (though still claims to be a believer)
Michael Marquardt - Ex LDS
Dan Vogel - Ex LDS

This list could easily be many times longer.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Zadok
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Re: A Siege Mentality?

Post by _Zadok »

Granted their have been credible scholars investigate the claims of the Church, especially regarding the Book of Abraham, who have studied the 'translation' and the papyri. But it has always been my impression that their goal and motivation was to prove the book a hoax, not to affirm it as translated scripture.

And again, all of the scholars who were LDS, and have now discovered the truth and left the faith, I can't see them has having a desire to work with their former colleagues in proving the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Abraham, as ancient translated scripture.

I just think DCP is kidding himself when he thinks he can have an on-going productive relationship with Non-LDS scholars. Given Dan's past postings, I think any relationship would quickly turn to name calling and animus between them.
A friendship that requires agreement in all things, is not worthy of the term friendship.
_Zub Zool oan
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Re: A Siege Mentality?

Post by _Zub Zool oan »

Didn't the World Table show the intransigence and inability of DCP to have any constructive engagement with non-believers?
18 And the man said: The woman thou gavest me, and commandest that she should remain with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree and I did eat. Moses 4:18
_Zadok
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Re: A Siege Mentality?

Post by _Zadok »

So, I had a thought today. It's an extreme hypothetical, but ponder this...

Suppose that in a moment of candid honesty the Church came forward and either in print or over the pulpit during Conference, admitted that the Book of Mormon is not a translation, nor a literal history of any real ancient peoples. That like the Book of Abraham, it is nothing more than inspired scripture revealed by God to the mind of a young man in New York in 1820.

Now...what would DCP say to that? Would he have the same disrespect and derision for whoever delivered the change? What would he do if the Church pulled the rug out from under the entire Book of Mormon apology effort?
A friendship that requires agreement in all things, is not worthy of the term friendship.
_Yahoo Bot
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Re: A Siege Mentality?

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

Bazooka wrote:It's amazing that anything and everything written about the Maxwell Institute is really all about Dan.


How enlightening.

The Review was by its nature reflective and defensive. But it was filled with papers that were not counters to some antiMormon screed. Unfortunately, the ones which failed to accurately cite to some Dr. Scratch blather are the ones attracting most of the anonymous diarrhea here.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: A Siege Mentality?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Yahoo Bot wrote:
Bazooka wrote:It's amazing that anything and everything written about the Maxwell Institute is really all about Dan.


How enlightening.

The Review was by its nature reflective and defensive. But it was filled with papers that were not counters to some antiMormon screed. Unfortunately, the ones which failed to accurately cite to some Dr. Scratch blather are the ones attracting most of the anonymous diarrhea here.


Hello Counselor,

Care to source that assertion?

V/R
PhD Cameron
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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