Joseph Smith and Handsome Lake

[_Nightlion]

What actual evidence exists to support the main thesis: that Joseph Smith was caught up with Natve Americans and the theological implications before translating the Gold Plates. Anything?

[_RockSlider]

What actual evidence exists to support the main thesis: that Joseph Smith was caught up with Natve Americans and the theological implications before translating the Gold Plates. Anything?

Funny, I read quite a bit of the linked material and thought of you. Handsome would have seen your images. A testimony written in nature.

Nightlion, Handsome Lake well could have been a true Prophet ... right?

[_Nightlion]

What actual evidence exists to support the main thesis: that Joseph Smith was caught up with Natve Americans and the theological implications before translating the Gold Plates. Anything?

Funny, I read quite a bit of the linked material and thought of you. Handsome would have seen your images. A testimony written in nature.

Nightlion, Handsome Lake well could have been a true Prophet ... right?

I Remember him back in the day when I did y own research. I have forgotten what I made of him. I'll try to read the link.

A salesman at pictureline told me about someone who saw things in Nevada mountains.

[_RedJacket]

Hi I'm new here but this post was brought to my attention by a friend. A few years ago I found a number of similarities between Joseph Smith and Red Jacket. I'm going to hijack your thread and add them here.

This post will propose a another piece in the puzzle, another source or inspiration for parts of the Book of Mormon. The source that I propose is from Speeches of a Native American called Sa-Go-Ye-Wat-Ha otherwise known as Red Jacket and also news relating to the Seneca Native Americans. Red Jacket was well known for his oratory skill and was actually a Native American Apologist. He is most well known for his Speech given in 1805 to a Christian Missionary in response to proselytizing efforts. This speech was widely circulated at the time.

The full text of Red Jacket's 1805 speech is available here
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeche ... jacket.htm

In the 1805 speech Red Jacket defended the Native American religion and attacked the Christian missionaries and their efforts to convert Native Americans on the following points. All these themes raised in the 1805 speech are found in the Book of Mormon with answers to the questions which is by its design meant to convert Native Americans Underneath each point I've put themes in the Book of Mormon that touch on these issues. :

1. That the white people relied on a book (the Bible), but that they disagreed on religion, the Seneca never disagreed on religion

That the book (the Bible) had been corrupted leading to the confusion with Christians.

1 Ne. 13: 21, 23-24, 28-29, 38 ; 1 Ne. 14: 23

2. That God had given his red children different customs of their forefathers which they should follow that the Great Spirit gives different people different religions according to their understanding

That people shouldn't follow "foolish traditions of their fathers".

Enos 1: 14 ; Mosiah 1: 5 ; Mosiah 10: 12 ; Mosiah 26: 1 ; Hel. 5: 19, 51 ; Hel. 15: 4, 7, 15 ; Alma 3: 11 ; Alma 9: 8, 16-17 ; Alma 17: 9, 15 ; Alma 18: 5 ; Alma 21: 8, 17 ; Alma 23: 3 ; Alma 24: 7 ; Alma 25: 6 ; Alma 26: 24 ; Alma 30: 14, 16, 23, 27, 31 ; Alma 31: 16 ; Alma 37: 9 ; Alma 60: 32 ; 3 Ne. 1: 11

3. If the Great Spirit intended Indians to have the book and religion why didn’t He give it to Indians and their forefathers with the means of understanding it.

That the Great Spirit did give the Native Americans the true religion according to their understanding, but that they fell into apostasy.

2 Ne. 31:3

4. That the Great Spirit gave the island for the use of Native Americans, the White man had asked for a seat and the Native Americans gave them one believing them to be friends the White man had now taken their whole country and were not content just taking the country but now wanted to take their religion from them

That America is a promised land meaning that God had given it to the Native Americans before but now He has given it for the Gentiles, it could be theirs again if they converted to Christianity a.k.a. Mormonism.

5. That Red Jacket had been to a meeting and had seen that they collected money and assumed this was to pay the minister and that the Christians might want money from them

That there should be no paid ministry

1 Ne. 22: 23 ; Morm. 8: 32-41

6. That the white man had deceived them in order to take things in the past

A common theme in the Book of Mormon deceiving to take things

Alma 20: 13 .

7. Red Jacket said that neighbours were Christian and so he would see the effect that it would have on the neighbours, if it made them good or bad

The Book of Mormon states clearly if something has a good effect then it is a good

Secondly I found this speech delivered by Red Jacket in 1822 here.

In this speech Red Jacket uses the argument that God gave different customs, natures and habits in the same way he gave different skin colours in people and animals and that these cannot be changed without displeasing the Great Spirit. Interestingly in this speech Red Jacket made this interesting statement about Native Americans becoming black men.

And I say that it is a fact, that whenever you find a tribe of Indians that have been christionized and have changed their custom or habit, which the Great good Spirit gave them, you will see that they are a poor, worthless, lying, ragged, miserable and degraded set of beings; and instead of becoming white men, as they expected to have become by changing their customs and habits, they have formed connections with the blacks, and have become black men in their actions and conduct. I say, therefore, that the Great Spirit will not suffer his Red Children to change their religion or custom. But when they attempt to do it punishes them by turning them into Black Men.

Red Jacket was speaking figuratively but the idea of God "turning [Native Americans] into black men" as a result of changing God given habits, but also "becoming white men" is shown in the following scriptures.

2 Ne. 5: 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Alma 3: 6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

3 Ne. 2: 14-16
14 And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites;
15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;
16 And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. And thus ended the thirteenth year.

1830 Edition Book of Mormon: 2 Nephi 30:6: “their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."

[_RedJacket]

In particular if you compare Alma 30 with Red Jacket's 1805 speech there are a number of distinct similarities.

14 Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers.
15 How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.
16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.
23 Now the high priest’s name was Giddonah. And Korihor said unto him: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words.
24 Ye say that this people is a free people. Behold, I say they are in bondage. Ye say that those ancient prophecies are true. Behold, I say that ye do not know that they are true.
25 Ye say that this people is a guilty and a fallen people, because of the transgression of a parent. Behold, I say that a child is not guilty because of its parents.
26 And ye also saythat Christ shall come. But behold, I say that ye do not know that there shall be a Christ. And ye say also that he shall be slain for the sins of the world—
27 And thus ye lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers, and according to your own desires; and ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands, that they durst not look up with boldness, and that they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges.
31 And he did rise up in great swelling words before Alma, and did revile against the priests and teachers, accusing them of leading away the people after the silly traditions of their fathers, for the sake of glutting on the labors of the people.
32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.
33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to law for our time.
34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the joy of our brethren?
35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their hearts?

And here are some similar phrases from both Red Jacket and the Book of Mormon. I'm not going to put everything on because it's probably too long but some phrases that seem to be in common.

your forefathers crossed the great water

1 Ne 17:17 "cross these great waters"
Ether 2:22 "cross this great water in darkness?"
Ether 6:3 "cross the great waters in darkness"

If we had some disputes about our hunting-ground they were generally settled without the shedding of much blood.

“shedding of much blood”

Alma 51:4 warm dispute concerning the matter, but not unto bloodshed" ;

Mosiah 9: 2 Therefore, I contended with my brethren in the wilderness, for I would that our ruler should make a treaty with them; but he being an austere and a blood-thirsty man commanded that I should be slain; but I was rescued by the shedding of much blood;

Mosiah 29:7, 21 "rise contentions among you which would be the cause of shedding much blood"

Mosiah 20: 22 And now let us pacify the king, and we fulfil the oath which we have made unto him; for it is better that we should be in bondage than that we should lose our lives; therefore, let us put a stop to the shedding of so much blood.

Alma 52: 4 And it came to pass that he did command that his people should maintain those cities, which they had taken by the shedding of blood; for they had not taken any cities save they had lost much blood.

Ether 11: 10 And he did do all manner of iniquity in his days, by which he did cause the shedding of much blood; and few were his days.

We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers and has been handed down from father to son. We also have a religion which was given to our forefathers and has been handed down to us, their children.

Morm 6:6 "records which had been handed down by our fathers ..... I gave unto my son"

It was the will of the Great Spirit that we should meet together this day. He orders all things and has given us a fine day for our council.

Mosiah 12:17 that the priests should gather themselves together that he might hold a council

Alma 24:5 they might hold a council

Alma 52:19 the chief captains held a council of war

We gave them corn and meat; they gave us poison in return. ....They also brought strong liquor among us. It was strong and powerful, and has slain thousands.

Alma 55: 30,32

30 And many times did they attempt to administer of their wine to the Nephites, that they might destroy them with poison or with drunkenness.
32 And they were thus cautious that no poison should be administered among them; for if their wine would poison a Lamanite it would also poison a Nephite; and thus they did try all their liquors.

Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit; if there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?

Alma 18: 2-5, 11, 18, 26, 28

2 Behold, is not this the Great Spirit who doth send such great punishments upon this people, because of their murders?
3 Whether he be the Great Spirit or a man,
4 Now I know that it is the Great Spirit; ...Now this is the Great Spirit of whom our fathers have spoken.
5 the tradition of Lamoni, which he had received from his father, that there was a Great Spirit.
11 Now I surely know that this is the Great Spirit,
18 Art thou that Great Spirit, who knows all things?
26 Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?
28 Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?

[Guest]

If you read Oliver Cowdery's speech to the Delaware Native Americans where he was introducing the Book of Mormon it reads as a point by point response to Red Jacket's speech in 1805.

Aged Chief and venerable Council of the Delaware nation; we are glad of this opportunity to address you as our red brethren and friends. We havetravelled a long from towards the rising sun to bring you glad news. We have travelled the wilderness crossed the deep and wide rivers and waded in the deep snows and in the face of the storms of winter, to communicate to you great knowledge which has lately come to our ears and hearts and which will do the red man good as well as the pale face.

"Once the red men were many; they occupied the country from sea to sea--from the rising to the setting sun; the whole land was theirs; and no pale faces dwelt among them. But now they are few in numbers: their possessions are small, and the pale faces are many.

"Thousands of moons ago, when the red men's forefathers dwelt in peace and possessed this whole land the Great spirit talked with them, and revealed His law and His will and much knowledge to their wise men and prophets This they wrote in a Book, together with their history and the things which should befall their children in the latter days.

"This Book was written on plates of gold and handed down from father to son for many ages and generations.

"It was then that the people prospered and were strong and mighty; they cultivated the earth built buildings and cities and abounded in all good things, as the pale faces now do.

"But they became wicked; they killed one another and shed much blood; they killed their prophets and wise men, and sought to destroy the Book. The Great Spirit became angry and would speak to them no more; they had no more good and wise dreams; no more visions, no more angels sent among them by the Great Spirit; and the Lord commanded Mormon and Moroni, their last wise men and prophets to hide the Book in the earth that it might be preserved in safety and be found and made known in the latter-day to the pale faces who should possess the land that they might again make it known to the red men, in order to restore them to the knowledge of the will of the the Great Spirit and to His favor. And if the red men would then receive this Book and learn the things written in it and do according thereunto, they should be restored to all their rights and privileges; should cease to fight and kill one another; should become one people; cultivate the earth in peace, in common with the pale faces who were willing to believe and obey the same Book and be good men and live in peace.

"Then should the red men become great and have plenty to eat and good clothes to wear, and should be in favor with the Great Spirit and be His children while He would be their Great Father and talk with them, and raise up prophets and wise and good men among them again who should teach them many things.

"This Book, which contained these things was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario county.

"In that neighborhood there lived a young man named Joseph smith who prayed to the Great Spirit much in order that he might know the truth, and the Great Spirit sent an angel to him and told him where this Book was hid by Moroni, and commanded him to go and get it. He accordingly went to the place and dug in the earth and found the Book written on golden plates.

"But it was written in the language of the forefathers of the red men; therefore this young man, being a pale face, could not understand it; but the angel told him and showed him and gave him knowledge of the language and how to interpret the Book so he interpreted it into the language of the pale faces, and wrote it on paper and caused it to be printed, and published thousands of copies of it among them, and then sent us to the red men to bring some copies of it to them, and to tell them this news. So we have now come from him, and here is a copy of the Book, which we now present to our red friend, the Chief of the Delawares which we hope he will cause to be read and known among his tribe;it will do them good."

[_RedJacket]

The Tl;dr version is that Red Jacket's speeches appear to have influenced the themes and wording in the Book of Mormon.

Many of these themes also appear in a speech made by Oliver Cowdery during his mission to the Lamanites.

Cowdery's speech to the Lamanites seems to be based on Red Jacket's 1805 speech.

[_Equality]

Fascinating. I wonder why the Johnson Brothers' N-gram study did not pick up anything from the red jacket speech. Does anyone know if it was included in their list of published works?

[_RedJacket]

Fascinating. I wonder why the Johnson Brothers' N-gram study did not pick up anything from the red jacket speech. Does anyone know if it was included in their list of published works?

I'm not sure if there is a large enough sample of Red Jacket's speeches to include them in a study. It would be intriguing if they could be included. The Johnson Brothers have done some compelling work.

[_Always Changing]

I just re-read the Code of Handsome Lake-- I see a lot more than the first time through several years ago. I forgot that once literature guides me to a source, it usually takes two times through before I begin to see the parallels others have seen. The Book of Mormon and Mormonism hitch-hiked on nearly anything available in 1829. LOL. Now beginning a survey of Rick Grunder's work.