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Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:46 am
by _Doctor CamNC4Me
Gorman wrote:The uncomfortable part for an unbeliever in the translation process of the Book of Mormon is the shortness of time in addition to the lack of an aid combined with the apparent lack of major revision of the manuscript.

...

I'm not saying there are no responses to this. I am saying they will always have serious credibility issues.


Mr. Gorman,

The faith-promoting narrative you're advancing is a fabrication. The Book of Mormon was produced over the course of years.

V/R
Doc

Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:49 am
by _Gorman
Zub Zool oan wrote:Didn't Cowdery go all over the map with his beliefs and church affiliations? Doesn't support a strong spiritual witness and so on. A bit like Joseph seeing God and Christ and trying to sell the Book of Mormon copyright.


I've never quite understood why the Book of Mormon copyright is considered such a big issue believers must face. After a quick google search, copyright terms only lasted a little over 40 years back then. It looks like the Book of Mormon copyright would have expired in 1870ish. And its very possible the LDS church (Brighamites) lost the copyright at the death of Joseph Smith (1844) because it passed onto his heir. I'm not a copyright lawyer, so I don't know particulars. Assuming the LDS church (Brighamites) was the church God accepted, from God's perspective, the church only had a few years of holding the copyright anyway. I wonder if people back then just tended to break copyright laws and get away with it more often.

Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:02 am
by _DarkHelmet
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Gorman wrote:The uncomfortable part for an unbeliever in the translation process of the Book of Mormon is the shortness of time in addition to the lack of an aid combined with the apparent lack of major revision of the manuscript.

...

I'm not saying there are no responses to this. I am saying they will always have serious credibility issues.


Mr. Gorman,

The faith-promoting narrative you're advancing is a fabrication. The Book of Mormon was produced over the course of years.

V/R
Doc


Exactly. The most current version of church history written by the Ministry of Propaganda, a.k.a., the Church Correlation Committee, is pretty miraculous. The actual history based on contemporary sources is much less miraculous.

Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:20 am
by _Gorman
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Mr. Gorman,

The faith-promoting narrative you're advancing is a fabrication. The Book of Mormon was produced over the course of years.

V/R
Doc


The time span doesn't help as much as you think. Here are two possible options with some degree of wiggle room between them.

1) A small group of people were in on the hoax. They planned it for years and pulled it off in a very short amount of time. Those who were fooled accurately reported what they saw. This leaves many complicated and unanswered questions as to how they actually could have pulled it off.

2) A relatively large group of people were in on the hoax. They accomplished the hoax over a long period of time and everyone who described the translation process was lying. This leaves many complicated and unanswered questions as to why dissenters stuck to the fabricated story even when conditions were favorable for them to spill the beans.

Even if the Book of Mormon was written over the course of many years, that does not mean the narrative you propose is easy to swallow. But that's fine. Whenever the answer to an argument is uncertain, both sides have to live with uncomfortable positions.

Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:34 am
by _EAllusion
The Book of Mormon is specifically dependent on the KJV text. It plagiarizes from it extensively, carries over translation errors, uses unique, sometimes incorrect, paraphrases of its wording rather than the underlying manuscripts, and has variants that are clearly secondary the peculiarities of the italics use in the KJV.

This tells us that either 1) Smith was working from a KJV source document and it is historically incorrect to think this did not happen or 2) Smith had a profoundly good memory of the KJV text, which could then just as easily apply a mentally pre-written Book of Mormon text.

Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:58 am
by _Themis
Gorman wrote:Since a few people are discussing my first point above, I should clarify what I mean.

The uncomfortable part for an unbeliever in the translation process of the Book of Mormon is the shortness of time in addition to the lack of an aid combined with the apparent lack of major revision of the manuscript.

If I were to assume an unbeliever's stance, Joseph Smith dictated a book entirely from memory straight through without any going back to revise or see where he left off. Even if he had the entire thing written out before hand, this would be almost impossible. Just contemplating reciting the Isaiah chapters word for word with almost no difference would require a savant-like memory. I cannot see how an unbeliever would be fine with the dictation story. This may be why hidden manuscripts or flat out lying about the dictation has been quite popular since the beginning. I this were the case, though, the witnesses make it a hard sell. Maintaining a belief in the Book of Mormon was not a popular thing. Both Cowdrey and Whitmer faced later professional ridicule for maintaining their belief. You have to assume the Three Witnesses were duped along with the rest. That just makes it harder. Now you have to figure out how Smith et al convinced three men that they had heard the voice of God and seen the plates and then manufactured an angel for the other witnesses. This just makes the response more complicated.

I'm not saying there are no responses to this. I am saying they will always have serious credibility issues.


Your posts show extreme bias and a inability to not only see non-believing perspectives, but also the ability to critically examine believing perspectives. You make huge assumptions of events we have little information about. Joseph had years to prepare, and the eyewitness accounts of the claimed dictation process would cover at best a fraction of the time. I would also suggest going to some magic shows. You can get entertainment and a little education. The Carbonaro effect is a good one.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8447kS90dk

Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:23 am
by _Doctor CamNC4Me
Hoo boy. Where to begin... I'll just insert my comments into yours.

Gorman wrote:The time span doesn't help as much as you think.

I'm not advocating on behalf of a time span. You are. It's interesting how quickly you moved away from a quick production schedule to another narrative that is more time friendly.

Here are two possible options with some degree of wiggle room between them.

1) A small group of people were in on the hoax. They planned it for years and pulled it off in a very short amount of time. Those who were fooled accurately reported what they saw. This leaves many complicated and unanswered questions as to how they actually could have pulled it off.

You're pretty much setting up a straw man with this. It could be that there was an attempt by one to write a book, and then it segued into a collaboration among a few. When the book wouldn't sell, a faith promoting narrative was created to generate interest in the book, and the formation of a church. It's not unusual for groups of people to plan a scam, and then act on it. I'd bother to Google for you the relevant information, but I think that's cheating you of the discovery process most of us had to go through.

If they could make a church fly that's a better life than a hard scrabble farmer in upper state New York could provide. Heck, you see many people want to grow up to be a preacher, and "make a living by the temple".


2) A relatively large group of people were in on the hoax. They accomplished the hoax over a long period of time and everyone who described the translation process was lying. This leaves many complicated and unanswered questions as to why dissenters stuck to the fabricated story even when conditions were favorable for them to spill the beans.

It's not complicated, whatsoever. Humans lie, and they'll look you straight in your damned face and tell you the sky is red if they thought it could benefit them. What's more likely? People sticking to a lie they created in order to avoid accountability, or to continue to gain from it... OR they all fess up, are ostracized, and then go back to their crappy farmer lives?

Even if the Book of Mormon was written over the course of many years, that does not mean the narrative you propose is easy to swallow. But that's fine. Whenever the answer to an argument is uncertain, both sides have to live with uncomfortable positions.

No. I'm not uncomfortable in the least with the questions you raise because they're nonsense. You simply make assertions, throw out postulations, and expect us to swallow your ruminations.

You made the claim. damned prove it.


edit: by the way, how in the “F” all do you get past the fact they tried to sell the copyright, and how to you jive that with the Church's official history on the matter?

edit: egh

- Doc

Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:40 am
by _canpakes
Gorman wrote:Since a few people are discussing my first point above, I should clarify what I mean.

The uncomfortable part for an unbeliever in the translation process of the Book of Mormon is the shortness of time in addition to the lack of an aid combined with the apparent lack of major revision of the manuscript.

If I were to assume an unbeliever's stance, Joseph Smith dictated a book entirely from memory straight through without any going back to revise or see where he left off. Even if he had the entire thing written out before hand, this would be almost impossible. Just contemplating reciting the Isaiah chapters word for word with almost no difference would require a savant-like memory. I cannot see how an unbeliever would be fine with the dictation story. This may be why hidden manuscripts or flat out lying about the dictation has been quite popular since the beginning. I this were the case, though, the witnesses make it a hard sell. Maintaining a belief in the Book of Mormon was not a popular thing. Both Cowdrey and Whitmer faced later professional ridicule for maintaining their belief. You have to assume the Three Witnesses were duped along with the rest. That just makes it harder. Now you have to figure out how Smith et al convinced three men that they had heard the voice of God and seen the plates and then manufactured an angel for the other witnesses. This just makes the response more complicated.

Gorman - the only thing 'complicated' here is the unnecessarily strict set of circumstances that you have purposefully limited the alternatives to, aside from 'rock in hat did it'.

There is absolutely nothing uncomfortable to me about the Book being a fabrication, even on the shortest of claimed legitimate production time line estimations. Again, 7 pages a day is all that it takes.

Perhaps a refresher is in order. Open your Book of Mormon to any page and tell me that it could not be turned out in an hour or two by a reasonably talented speaker. One of my favorites is pg. 128, from Jacob, replete with "But, behold..." and "It came to pass..". Or take pages 298 and 299, from Alma, where the content is little more than recycled lamentations. Or hop on over to Helaman on pg. 396, to see another page of what basically amounts to fluff. Or any of the pages where Isaiah is repeated, nearly word for word. How is any of this beyond the ability of one fairly competent speaker from dictating at the rate of 7 pages a day?

Now, before you try to tell me about Joseph Smith's inability to speak English above a poor second-grader's level or somesuch, please refer back to the volumes we have recorded for his off-the-cuff speaking. If the man can produce such a copious record of contemporaneous examples, then I fail to see what his supposed limitations would be in churning out a single page of the Book of Mormon within an hour or two... and, again, that's under the fastest claimed time line, assuming no help from any other person in on the effort. In other words, the most demanding scenario poses no real challenge given his recorded abilities, and every other scenario just makes the task much easier.


Gorman wrote:I'm not saying there are no responses to this. I am saying they will always have serious credibility issues.

Perhaps for an individual who opts to ignore Occam's Razor, and decides to park their common sense on the shelf in favor of 'rock in hat'. But doing so seems to redefine what is credible.

Otherwise, can you tell me why the scenario that I've given above - i.e., the most demanding single-author theory - is less plausible than 'rock in hat', given the record of Smith's speaking ability?

Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:32 pm
by _DarkHelmet
Themis wrote:
Gorman wrote:Since a few people are discussing my first point above, I should clarify what I mean.

The uncomfortable part for an unbeliever in the translation process of the Book of Mormon is the shortness of time in addition to the lack of an aid combined with the apparent lack of major revision of the manuscript.

If I were to assume an unbeliever's stance, Joseph Smith dictated a book entirely from memory straight through without any going back to revise or see where he left off. Even if he had the entire thing written out before hand, this would be almost impossible. Just contemplating reciting the Isaiah chapters word for word with almost no difference would require a savant-like memory. I cannot see how an unbeliever would be fine with the dictation story. This may be why hidden manuscripts or flat out lying about the dictation has been quite popular since the beginning. I this were the case, though, the witnesses make it a hard sell. Maintaining a belief in the Book of Mormon was not a popular thing. Both Cowdrey and Whitmer faced later professional ridicule for maintaining their belief. You have to assume the Three Witnesses were duped along with the rest. That just makes it harder. Now you have to figure out how Smith et al convinced three men that they had heard the voice of God and seen the plates and then manufactured an angel for the other witnesses. This just makes the response more complicated.

I'm not saying there are no responses to this. I am saying they will always have serious credibility issues.


Your posts show extreme bias and a inability to not only see non-believing perspectives, but also the ability to critically examine believing perspectives. You make huge assumptions of events we have little information about. Joseph had years to prepare, and the eyewitness accounts of the claimed dictation process would cover at best a fraction of the time. I would also suggest going to some magic shows. You can get entertainment and a little education. The Carbonaro effect is a good one.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8447kS90dk


I think it makes believers feel better thinking that non-Mormons have difficulty sleeping at night because of the possibility that the Book of Mormon might be true. They have delusions of grandeur about the Book of Mormon being studied and analyzed by the great minds of the world, when in reality it's just a silly little curiosity that the vast majority of the world hasn't given a second thought to. It's a joke in the religious community outside of Mormonism. It's a joke among experts of American history. It's literally a joke on Broadway. Everyone else just ignores it.

Re: Don't be afraid of Gospel Questions. Build a shelf.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:13 pm
by _Themis
DarkHelmet wrote:I think it makes believers feel better thinking that non-Mormons have difficulty sleeping at night because of the possibility that the Book of Mormon might be true.


If I was uncomfortable about the possibility the Book of Mormon is really true I would have just stayed as a believer. Maybe I wouldn't say to myself I know, but I would be comfortable enough to believe.