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Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:17 pm
by _mentalgymnast
I have a question wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
Why that direct connection? If it's 'all true' there could still be racism within the church...as there was in the culture at large.

Regards,
MG


Please explain how racist doctrine could be considered true when it's now been officially confessed as being untrue?


We have Adam/God. Polygamy. United Order. Zion in Missouri. Second Coming in the 1800's. Understanding of God's nature and that of the HG. Book of Mormon peopling the whole of the Western Hemisphere. Temple ceremonies. Word of Wisdom. Etc.etc. True and/or valid teaching(s)? Well, at the time they were/are practiced/taught, they were/are. That's the thing with truth and/or those things that are circumstantially correct/valid, it's all relative to time, place, and circumstances. Didn't Joseph Smith teach something to that effect?

But Truth (capital T) tends to cut its own way over time. We may be getting closer to it. Line upon line. Precept upon precept.
Regards,
MG

Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:27 pm
by _I have a question
mentalgymnast wrote:True and/or valid teaching(s)? Well, at the time they were/are practiced/taught, they were/are. That's the thing with truth and/or those things that are circumstantially correct/valid, it's all relative to time, place, and circumstances. Didn't Joseph Smith teach something to that effect?


You've just articulated why we cannot trust Church Leaders to tell the truth.
You're also advocating "follow the Prophet, even if he's wrong".

Racism has never been okay, even if society found it acceptable in a certain era of time.
The Church confession tells us that.

You seem to be suggesting Church doctrine is as susceptible to the vagaries of the human condition as any other man made organization. Shouldn't we be anticipating Gods Church to be a little better than that?

Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:33 pm
by _sock puppet
I have a question wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
Why that direct connection? If it's 'all true' there could still be racism within the church...as there was in the culture at large.

Regards,
MG


Please explain how racist doctrine could be considered true when it's now been officially confessed as being untrue?

Mormon god's "truth" defies logic.

Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:36 pm
by _sock puppet
I have a question wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
Why that direct connection? If it's 'all true' there could still be racism within the church...as there was in the culture at large.

Regards,
MG


Please explain how racist doctrine could be considered true when it's now been officially confessed as being untrue?
mentalgymnast wrote:We have Adam/God. Polygamy. United Order. Zion in Missouri. Second Coming in the 1800's. Understanding of God's nature and that of the HG. Book of Mormon peopling the whole of the Western Hemisphere. Temple ceremonies. Word of Wisdom. Etc.etc. True and/or valid teaching(s)? Well, at the time they were/are practiced/taught, they were/are. That's the thing with truth and/or those things that are circumstantially correct/valid, it's all relative to time, place, and circumstances. Didn't Joseph Smith teach something to that effect?

But Truth (capital T) tends to cut its own way over time. We may be getting closer to it. Line upon line. Precept upon precept.
Regards,
MG

So Mormon god's "truth" is a moving target? Maybe he doesn't know as much as mankind does.

Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:48 pm
by _DarkHelmet
I have a question wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:True and/or valid teaching(s)? Well, at the time they were/are practiced/taught, they were/are. That's the thing with truth and/or those things that are circumstantially correct/valid, it's all relative to time, place, and circumstances. Didn't Joseph Smith teach something to that effect?


You've just articulated why we cannot trust Church Leaders to tell the truth.
You're also advocating "follow the Prophet, even if he's wrong".

Racism has never been okay, even if society found it acceptable in a certain era of time.
The Church confession tells us that.

You seem to be suggesting Church doctrine is as susceptible to the vagaries of the human condition as any other man made organization. Shouldn't we be anticipating Gods Church to be a little better than that?


The difference is that society and individuals outside the church grow and change as they gain new knowledge and understanding. Mormons have to wait for their leaders to give them permission.

Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:54 pm
by _mentalgymnast
I have a question wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:True and/or valid teaching(s)? Well, at the time they were/are practiced/taught, they were/are. That's the thing with truth and/or those things that are circumstantially correct/valid, it's all relative to time, place, and circumstances. Didn't Joseph Smith teach something to that effect?


You've just articulated why we cannot trust Church Leaders to tell the truth.
You're also advocating "follow the Prophet, even if he's wrong".

Racism has never been okay, even if society found it acceptable in a certain era of time.
The Church confession tells us that.

You seem to be suggesting Church doctrine is as susceptible to the vagaries of the human condition as any other man made organization. Shouldn't we be anticipating Gods Church to be a little better than that?


But I haven't said that we can't trust Church Leaders to lead us in the direction of truth that really matters. This is a church of common consent. A critical mass of people have to be on board before anything can be subscribed to as a core/essential doctrine. Doctrines such as baptism, repentance, basic gospel teachings (those in the realm of the Beatitudes), service, the atonement, Jesus as Savior, God as our Father, prayer, and such, have been readily accepted by the church and have remained core teachings without much of an upheaval or disbelief attached thereunto. But some of the other teachings/practices have been either unacceptable and/or unlivable by enough saints (or other factors have entered into the picture) that the doctrine/practice has been taken off the menu, so to speak. Think back to Moses and the higher/lesser law for example. It appears that God works within a closed system in which mankind creates the current reality in which truth is disseminated.

Can God change that reality...that human nature once the ball is rolling?

Common consent. The Church is a communal kingdom. People have to be on board for anything to stay in place over time. And numbers do matter. If Brigham and some of his associates hadn't been creatures of the culture in which they lived and the 1978 revelation had come to either Joseph or Brigham, how would that have worked out in the decades to come within the cultural environment of America? The influences that the saints would be subject to from the outside? Schools, workplaces, institutions, etc. I suppose we don't really know. But it is easy to armchair it and say how it should have been and recourse to calling folks racists or uninspired.

So can we trust leaders to tell us the truth? Sure, inasmuch as they understand it or are willing/able to accept/understand it.

It is quite obvious, however, that if our expectation is that God tells us the truth, all the truth, and nothing but the truth...we're going to be disappointed. Should we expect God's church to be "better than that"? Well, yes and no. Yes, in that one would think that there would be more folks within the church that would consent to more 'truth' from God than there are those that do not desire more truth. And no, in that the church IS people. And people are fickle. People are stupid at times. People can't always be trusted to do the right thing.

Regards,
MG

Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:43 am
by _sock puppet
mentalgymnast wrote:People are stupid at times. People can't always be trusted to do the right thing.

Regards,
MG

Funny, but it seems Mormon god is as fickle as personnel changes in the FP/12 and changes in public opinion, and so if people can't be trusted, neither can Mormon god who changes directions, albeit decades after social thinking changes. Mormon god must be one of those who leadsfollows from behind.

Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:11 am
by _mentalgymnast
sock puppet wrote: [G]od must be one...who leadsfollows from behind.


Or alongside. Remember, common consent. Participation. Community. Ownership. It's everyone's project. Not just God's.

And yes, he may at times be in the rear guard pushing the troops ahead. And at other times He may be out front calling the commands/encouragement to come forward/onward to where He is.

Are you thinking God can get the job done on His own?

Regards,
MG

Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:18 am
by _just me
Common consent....except in the case of polygamy. In that case god dragged Joseph kicking and screaming, threatened to murder him and destroy Emma, had the leaders break the law and lie for a decade or two THEN removed the Article on Marriage (that had been sustained by Common Consent) without a vote and replaced it with Section 132.

God sure is mysterious.

Re: When Doubts and Questions Arise - March Ensign

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:33 am
by _Quasimodo
mentalgymnast wrote:
Are you thinking God can get the job done on His own?

Regards,
MG


It seems to me that any dude that can create a Universe could pull it off.