The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

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_Kishkumen
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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _Kishkumen »

honorentheos wrote:Hi Kish,

It's above my pay grade to attempt to recreate a timeline of Mormon apologetics and it's criticism to the present, but it would be interesting to see if it is either available somewhere or could be fleshed out.


Well, Mormons might place the beginning of Mormon apologetics in Book of Mormon times. Certainly they would place them in the New Testament period, but then flowering in the second century AD. Modern LDS apologetics begin in the 19th century in the period of early Mormonism.

honorentheos wrote:My initiation in the discovery process I think many now-former LDS go through began around the same time there was considerable buzz over the editors of The New Mormon Challenge acknowledging the legitimacy of Mormon apologetics by evangelical scholars and, more titillating to Mormons who cared, their presentation calling the Christian anti-cult ministries to arms with the declaration that evangelicals were actually losing the fight. (link here to the 1997 presentation) Recalling it, I went back to see what they had felt were the substantial works that informed their opinion and, in reviewing it, would say a start to such a timeline could begin with their footnotes. At the least, it makes for an interesting snap-shot in time.


Cool. Thanks for sharing that. My initial encounter was in the 1980s, when I first read Nibley's stuff.

honorentheos wrote:Anyway, I'm curious what the outlines of the sweeping vista of the current state of apologetics might look like? Personally, I don't think the vitriol and contempt have subsided as many participants from all sides have moved deeper and deeper into niche venues. Rather the opposite. My anecdotal observation is the contempt that serves as the foundation for the aggression and challenge remains well fueled and burning hotter than ever for being consolidated and insulated. When it fans up into visible flames, it's not because it is heating up. It's just exposed. There are, of course, counter examples on both sides, and I think most could agree they are characterized best by their general respect for either an opposing view or their field with the natural need to accept questioning and challenge as part of the process of growth and progress. But in some ways I read in Symmachus' critique overall there is a watering down of both criticism and apologetic due to the penchant to favor easier formats with less probability of substantial challenge anticipating or requiring informed rebuttal. I think we see that even if the vista of defense (and criticism for that matter) has widened it has lost some of it's capacity to force dialog and adaptation in favor of developing and putting ever finer points on esoterica. I'm sure it's part of the cycle of things.


Well, it seems to me that religionists have always been pretty unfair to each other, particularly when they are distinguishing their views from those of others. The new MI's approach is a breath of fresh air, as is David Bokovoy's. Perhaps its novelty is part of why it is so threatening to classic-FARMS polemicists.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _KevinSim »

cwald wrote:
Tobin wrote:I don't believe in a white-haired magical father figure called God. Instead, I believe God, actually the gods, were once like us millions if not billions of years ago. But they have evolved and advanced, traveled the stars and visited here (likely long ago). It is these advanced beings that mankind (because we are so primitive) are mistaking for magical beings called God and angels. I believe the truth of the matter is that they monitor us, interfere with us from time-to-time to help us advance, but otherwise leave us to our own devices. When we have reached a certain point in our development they will introduce us to all the other advanced civilizations that likely surround us, but we are unaware of because of how primitive and savage we still are. That is what Christians mistake as the millennium.

That sounds like Mormonism101...it's what I was taught growing up. ... which is why it surprises me the LDS faithful threw you under the bus. Is it because the church is embarrassed by its own doctrine?

Cwald, what sounds like Mormonism101, the belief "in a white-haired magical father figure called God," or Tobin's belief in gods who "evolved and advanced, traveled the stars and visited here" long ago?
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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _KevinSim »

Tobin wrote:
KevinSim wrote:As I told Black Moclips in the "Men doing for themselves what God won't do" thread, this is an interesting theory. In fact there's not a whole lot of difference between your theory and Black Moclips' theory; those two theories are definitely closer to each other than either is to mine. If your, and Black Moclips', quasi-deities are simply members of races more technologically advanced than ours is, then the possibility exists that those races can go extinct, just like the human race could go extinct, and whatever meaning that race might have might be temporary too. I'm looking for a deity that preserves forever some good things.

I think you are mistaken. Even the Mormon God admits he could cease to be God if he chose to.

I think I'm familiar with the passages that quote "the Mormon God" as admitting He "could cease to be God if he chose to." I don't see any reason to believe God choosing to was anything more than hypothetical. I believe God knows that He will never choose to cease to be God.

Tobin wrote:I think you are looking for safety that doesn't exist.

I hear what you're saying, and I think I even understand why you believe the way you do, but I must respectfully disagree. I believe that safety does exist.
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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _cwald »

KevinSim wrote:
cwald wrote:That sounds like Mormonism101...it's what I was taught growing up. ... which is why it surprises me the LDS faithful threw you under the bus. Is it because the church is embarrassed by its own doctrine?

Cwald, what sounds like Mormonism101, the belief "in a white-haired magical father figure called God," or Tobin's belief in gods who "evolved and advanced, traveled the stars and visited here" long ago?


Both. A white haired god, one of many, who evolved, advanced, progressed, learned the sciences, traveled here long ago, and now lives on a planet called Kolob.

I really think Tobinism is much more Mormon than modern day Mormon teaching emphasis are Mormonism. Make sense?
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _sock puppet »

cwald wrote:That sounds like Mormonism101...it's what I was taught growing up. ... which is why it surprises me the LDS faithful threw you under the bus. Is it because the church is embarrassed by its own doctrine?
KevinSim wrote:Cwald, what sounds like Mormonism101, the belief "in a white-haired magical father figure called God," or Tobin's belief in gods who "evolved and advanced, traveled the stars and visited here" long ago?
cwald wrote:Both. A white haired god, one of many, who evolved, advanced, progressed, learned the sciences, traveled here long ago, and now lives on a planet called Kolob.

I really think Tobinism is much more Mormon than modern day Mormon teaching emphasis are Mormonism. Make sense?

Nope. Nothing involving Tobin makes any sense.
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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _Tobin »

KevinSim wrote:
Tobin wrote:I think you are mistaken. Even the Mormon God admits he could cease to be God if he chose to.

I think I'm familiar with the passages that quote "the Mormon God" as admitting He "could cease to be God if he chose to." I don't see any reason to believe God choosing to was anything more than hypothetical. I believe God knows that He will never choose to cease to be God.
Why speculate about it if it isn't possible? I'd offer your assertion that an advanced species that has survived billions of years could still go extinct despite how advanced they have become is the same sort of thing. While it is hypothetical, given what they have survived and how advanced they have become, it is just as unlikely.
KevinSim wrote:
Tobin wrote:I think you are looking for safety that doesn't exist.
I hear what you're saying, and I think I even understand why you believe the way you do, but I must respectfully disagree. I believe that safety does exist.
I'm sure you do. But I think you'll find that kind of safety is an illusion. We must constantly struggle and advance or there is a real danger of failing and falling. I'm sure the same is true for God. I don't think God is static or passive in his position, but he must instead continue to seek challenges (reforming our species seems to be an obvious one) and advance.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _honorentheos »

Kishkumen wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Anyway, I'm curious what the outlines of the sweeping vista of the current state of apologetics might look like? Personally, I don't think the vitriol and contempt have subsided as many participants from all sides have moved deeper and deeper into niche venues. Rather the opposite. My anecdotal observation is the contempt that serves as the foundation for the aggression and challenge remains well fueled and burning hotter than ever for being consolidated and insulated. When it fans up into visible flames, it's not because it is heating up. It's just exposed. There are, of course, counter examples on both sides, and I think most could agree they are characterized best by their general respect for either an opposing view or their field with the natural need to accept questioning and challenge as part of the process of growth and progress. But in some ways I read in Symmachus' critique overall there is a watering down of both criticism and apologetic due to the penchant to favor easier formats with less probability of substantial challenge anticipating or requiring informed rebuttal. I think we see that even if the vista of defense (and criticism for that matter) has widened it has lost some of it's capacity to force dialog and adaptation in favor of developing and putting ever finer points on esoterica. I'm sure it's part of the cycle of things.


Well, it seems to me that religionists have always been pretty unfair to each other, particularly when they are distinguishing their views from those of others. The new MI's approach is a breath of fresh air, as is David Bokovoy's. Perhaps its novelty is part of why it is so threatening to classic-FARMS polemicists.

Hi Kish,

I'm sure I'm adding to the original thought, but I wonder if we ought to consider novelty as independent from increasing depth of understanding? Possibly accepting novelty as a standard of some sort, would we be contributing to the watering down of argument and counter-argument if we don't hold it to a consistent standard regarding the actual content?
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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _Kishkumen »

honorentheos wrote:Hi Kish,

I'm sure I'm adding to the original thought, but I wonder if we ought to consider novelty as independent from increasing depth of understanding? Possibly accepting novelty as a standard of some sort, would we be contributing to the watering down of argument and counter-argument if we don't hold it to a consistent standard regarding the actual content?


Point taken, honorentheos. I was not trying to set up novelty as a standard. I was only saying that the new MI and Bokovoy have views that others, being unfamiliar with them, may resist on the grounds that they seem novel. You are right, however, that it is important to be very careful in how one characterizes what it is that both the new MI and Bokovoy seem to be up to, which is, at least partly, the enrichment and deepening of the LDS understanding of scripture in a manner that is consistent with the revelations of the founder, Joseph Smith.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _Zub Zool oan »

Kishkumen wrote:Point taken, honorentheos. I was not trying to set up novelty as a standard. I was only saying that the new MI and Bokovoy have views that others, being unfamiliar with them, may resist on the grounds that they seem novel. You are right, however, that it is important to be very careful in how one characterizes what it is that both the new MI and Bokovoy seem to be up to, which is, at least partly, the enrichment and deepening of the LDS understanding of scripture in a manner that is consistent with the revelations of the founder, Joseph Smith.


Ultimately isn't this an attempt to figure out a way to be able to believe in many of the basic concepts and ideas within Mormonism but in some ways get rid of or at least reduce the hard absolute severe stuff that becomes harder with each generation to take seriously. Good post modernists and post structuralists have a problem with the old rigidity so maybe, some, would like to see a small reformation or at least some changes to make the church a bit more tolerant and friendly. Dopey and BC Space hate that idea because like many others, including many of the old guard they are in need of absolute black and white rules and definitions. You see this in the apologists in the accusations about ex Mormons being so fundamentalist, but in those areas that are the center piece the apologists are every bit as fundamentalist in their outlook, thinking and treatment of others. The church is becoming more and more PR savvy but you can only dress and redress the image so many times. Conservative GA's like Packer are always ultra hard assed, but to appeal to younger generations they might be finding that the youth don't care for the hard ass aspects, but are looking for community, friendships and a good environment to raise children. I think family size will go way down soon because of economic facts and the church relatively recently, beginning to advise those in need to petition the government. It was a point of pride for a very long time that no active Mormon was on the government dole because the church displaced that need with their members and supporting them in hard times. I wonder if younger folks want a refuge from the crazy world that is maybe a bit more sympathetic and understanding. I don't know if it is possible but if they don't figure something out, those that leave will be the ones with the talent to be leaders that will be difficult for them and Bishops will be even more amateur. I don't really know. Some churches go through a kind of maturation and I wonder if Mormonism can. Many hold to the idea the church can do no wrong no matter what. This gets harder to pull off because of so many past wrong statements, but if they mirror the way snakey corporations do things and explain themselves after a while after listening to the empty stuff they say at best no one is inspired and with corporate speak, depending on the issue, you sometimes feel you need a shower the way certain entities spin and contort anything. As I said I don't know because I am not a prophet.
18 And the man said: The woman thou gavest me, and commandest that she should remain with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree and I did eat. Moses 4:18
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Re: The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

Post by _Symmachus »

Kishkumen wrote:Symmachus has raised some interesting questions. Certainly technology has changed the playing field and the defense of Mormonism has taken many new and interesting forms. I am not convinced that apologetics is to be equated with writing books and articles. Apologetics can include a wide array of activities that involve the defense of faith. Unfortunately, we are conditioned by our history engaging with a certain kind of apologist and his work to see it much like the blindfolded guru who holds his part of the elephant and defines it only partially. I would submit that a more sweeping vista on the history of apologetics would help us greatly here.


Greetings, great and noble Kishkumen. I wish I could begin this late reply with a Petersonian flourish about how I’m late respond because I’ve been pal-ing around with rich catamites on a cruise in the eastern Mediterranean and how, after a very thrilling experience of a Wagner revival at the Instanbul opera house, we all went out for a late dinner with a former mission president and the archbishop of Canterbury. Alas, the truth involves snow-packed roads rather than Mediterranean cruises, nary an archbishop or mission president, and fewer catamites.

I think I would agree that a broader view of apologetics is/was/should/could be needed. That's actually part of the reasoning for my introducing print vs. internet. Looking at what's been written rather than coded via iPhone would draw a wider definition for apologetics, not just to include Nibley, Stephen Ricks, Robert Millett et al. but also B.H. Roberts, Truman Madsen, and even these days David Bokovoy and Ben Park. Even, in a strange way, Sterling McMurrin. What all these scholars have in common is a basically constructive ethos: to engage with the dominant, non-LDS modes of thought and in the process create news of way of thinking about various aspects of Mormonism. There is a point to what they're doing. Defending the faith doesn't mean refuting the opposition point-by-point (at least not just doing that) but defending its right to exist an intellectually respectable system within the broader cultural economy. But that kind of work generally can’t be done online; it’s just too ephemeral a medium for constructive, creative ambition. Online apologetics is really so much more limited in aims, as well as in its methods, and, to be frank, it really isn't that wide an array of activities: faithful blogger A writes to attack Kate Kelly (or Dehlin, or whomever), NOMish blogger B responds in kind, and then a host of Facebook feuds and comment-section bickering. This sort of "dialogue" stays focused on ideas for a short space before finally giving way to what are often quite venomous personal attacks. That makes sense, though, if you image (as I do) social media to be largely a self-directed advertising process for your own personality cult. It's a dim view, but I've got good reasons for it.

Although my view of apologetics might seem based on some very unusual definitions given the way that “apologist” and “apologetics” are used in internet Mormonism, in a sense they reflect a rather traditional understanding of apologetics, though not a simplistic one, I hope. Engaging with non-Christian intellectual traditions is what helped Christianity create its own distinctive Christian culture and its own Christian traditions. True, some of the apologetic masterpieces of early Christianity are very personalized, very minute refutations. But that’s not all they are. Christian apologetics was the intellectual superstructure onto which Christian though could be imposed. Many of the various strands of Christianity have followed similar paths, and a similar dynamic was at work in early Islam and medieval Judaism (Hellenistic Judaism had tried but not quite succeeded to create a lasting tradition, for various reasons, some internal and some not). In all these cases, defense of the faith is part of it, but only to the extent that defense is active rather than passive and leads to something more than that, something enduring and lasting. No Christian apologist worth his salt would have thought it enough simply to refute an opponent; the whole point of even the most combative apologetics (like Tertullian, for instance) was to show not only why your opponent’s view was wrong but (more importantly) why yours was in every way superior, even on your opponent’s own terms. In short, apologetics should be a creative enterprise.

Mormonism (parvis componere magna) has had the slightest beginnings of this. B.H. Roberts’s great history started as a series of articles for an American history magazine that were written to refute what he had considered terrible misrepresentations of the Mormon past. It became the Comperhensive History of the Church, still the most, well, comprehensive history there is for the first century of Mormonism. Nibley’s first Mormon publication of any kind was No Ma’am, That’s not History. It’s terrible scholarship, but although much of Nibleyan style, polemic, and shoddy methodologies were there, for the most part his later work transcended that rather juvenile pamphlet. Nibley’s apologetic went beyond mere tit-for-tat and became a creative endeavor in its own right, as he practically invented whole-cloth a new and invigorating perspective from which to view Mormon scriptural claims (even if, like me, you think this is mostly bunk, still it was something; as the great philosopher Walter Sobchak once said: “At least it’s an ethos, man”).

On the other hand, the Peterson-Hamblin school, although it is clearly rooted within the Nibley tradition, has never been able to get past mere imitation of Nibley’s worst qualities and most obvious approaches; as a result, it has basically a destructive ethos: just slash and burn whatever doesn't buttress the status quo. Responding to critiques in a way that is creative and leads to new ways of thinking about Mormonism is not their priority. I doubt they would disagree with that, since I doubt they see that as the aim of apologetic work. In either case, nobody reading this could point to a single book written in the past thirty years that, at best, isn’t just a rehash or imitation of Nibley. In fact, you’d be hard pressed to find any books from the past thirty years at all. The only genre they have excelled in and added to Mormon intellectual life is the extended book review shot through with innuendo and ad hominem, and I doubt that anyone is going to care if it goes gentle into that good night—and soon.

That is because their approach cannot sustain the sort of rigor that writing a book requires. On the other hand, their approach is ideally suited to internet culture, where the biting comment, the snide remark, and the personal attack are primary weapons in the preservation of the status quo and promotion of one’s own personality cult (i.e. "social" media). If you think of apologetics as more than just defending your own personal religious tastes—not because they are better but simply because they are yours—there is a limit to what internet-style “apologetics” can do, because you can't build lasting structures through Facebook posts and a Patheos blog. There is a huge difference between Facebook clicktivism and real activism (as so many people like to point here about Johh Dehlin), just as there is a huge difference between being able to organize large rallies through social media and implementing actual political change. Taking that same dim view of what the internet actually encourages people to do (or not to do), I say there is a huge difference between what Nibley did and what Peterson has done. People will still be talking about Hugh Nibley in fifty years, but I doubt anyone will even bother to look up Sice et Non on the Wayback Machine, which is where it will be soon enough.

In sum, if I'm a restricting the definition, it is between creative and productive approaches more interested in long term cultural value and between those approaches that are more ephemeral in their interests (e.g. attacking the latest Facebook post from John Dehlin). So far, online apologetics has failed to say anything new; maybe someday its practitioners will, so perhaps it is at this point merely accidental that the distinction between creative and destructive maps directly onto the divide between print and internet, but I think the nature of these media plays a very large part in this.
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