LDS getting desperate: "the church has never been stronger"

[_ldsfaqs]

You didn't answer the questions.

I answered the question, you're simply ignoring the answer.

To be even more clear, he said "The Church".... he didn't say a member, he didn't say "all 15Million are strong", etc. etc.
He said "The Church". Learn to read.

[_Elphaba]

Can someone explain how the Church defines a "defection"?

Thanks,
Elphaba

[_I have a question]

You didn't answer the questions.

I answered the question, you're simply ignoring the answer.

To be even more clear, he said "The Church".... he didn't say a member, he didn't say "all 15Million are strong", etc. etc.
He said "The Church". Learn to read.

Can the membership be weak whilst simultaneously The Church is strong?

[_sock puppet]

Can someone explain how the Church defines a "defection"?

Thanks,
Elphaba

Since it was bcspace who used the term in this thread, it means those who have become democrats.

[_Chap]

You didn't answer the questions.

I answered the question, you're simply ignoring the answer.

To be even more clear, he said "The Church".... he didn't say a member, he didn't say "all 15Million are strong", etc. etc.
He said "The Church". Learn to read.

Can the membership be weak whilst simultaneously The Church is strong?

Easy - the CoJCoLDS has coasting along for years with a membership that is static as a proportion of the US population, despite the high Mormon birthrate, and that is only likely to fall in future. Hardly any mentally normal persons with a place in society in a first world country, a functioning brain and internet access are likely to join this religion in the coming decades. The core US membership is flatlining, and can only go down.

On the other hand, the Corporation of the President has lots and lots of lovely $$$$ and owns lots of land and businesses. It doesn't have to tell anybody its financial position, and it gets tax breaks for being a religion. So, the Church is strong all right.

[_mackay11]

I'm sure some people who have left the Church are like that, but I'm also sure that a lot are like my daughter who has gone inactive but who is gradually taking steps that might lead her back to activity.

In that case, we ought to be able to see the level of activity rising again. Are we?

A good test of Sethbag's statement can be drawn from the Pew survey a few years back, in which people in the US were asked to say that their religion was, if any. The number declaring themselves to be 'LDS/Mormon' was considerably less that the claims of membership made by the CoJCoLDS.

Ahem... It's usually the leadership who forget this is a global church... Not an American one.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "never stronger" claims are dependent on non-USA (and non-Europe) based growth in absolute numbers. I find it very believable that numerically there have never been more members.

[_passenger]

Ahem... It's usually the leadership who forget this is a global church... Not an American one.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "never stronger" claims are dependent on non-USA (and non-Europe) based growth in absolute numbers. I find it very believable that numerically there have never been more members.

That's a good point. The image doesn't tell us about the total number of members, only estimated numbers, but their distribution. I don't know if it's based on LDS statistic, but I think it's reliable, because it's wikipedia.


(LDS global distribution)

In Germany, by the way., there are approx. 38,000 Mormons (LDS).

[_Chap]

I'm sure some people who have left the Church are like that, but I'm also sure that a lot are like my daughter who has gone inactive but who is gradually taking steps that might lead her back to activity.

In that case, we ought to be able to see the level of activity rising again. Are we?

A good test of Sethbag's statement can be drawn from the Pew survey a few years back, in which people in the US were asked to say that their religion was, if any. The number declaring themselves to be 'LDS/Mormon' was considerably less that the claims of membership made by the CoJCoLDS.

Ahem... It's usually the leadership who forget this is a global church... Not an American one.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "never stronger" claims are dependent on non-USA (and non-Europe) based growth in absolute numbers.

You may well be right.

I find it very believable that numerically there have never been more members.

Can we just expand that a little?

I find it very believable that in terms of the numbers of names listed on the church's records for overseas countries there have never been more members.

I suspect that there is often a rather large discrepancy between the names on the list and the names you would get if you listed only those who thought of themselves as LDS members, and yet another discrepancy if you limited yourself further to listing the names of those who turned up to church with any regularity.

This site:

http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.fr/2011 ... ember.html

gives the UK 'activity rate', that is, percentage of listed members who show at least minimal church involvement, as 18%. The estimated world rate outside the US and Canada is 22.5%.

If I was an apostle, yup, I might put all the weight I could on statistics from outside the US. But I think I would know that in terms of actual tithing income, I could forget about everywhere else but the US. Again using the UK as an example, the church's published accounts for that country show that it runs deeply in the red, and is kept afloat by subventions from Salt Lake City. Is it likely that Burundi does much better?

[_honorentheos]

At the same time, there has been what I call a dramatic increase in the numbers of temple-endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers and those serving missions.

This is an interesting qualifier, to say the least.

It is. I would think with the age decrease for missionary service we are seeing a surge in missionaries which results in a surge in endowed members current temple recommend holders and of course full tithe paying members. As the surge ends we will still a higher number of women missionaries, and since those who didn't go would usually wait until marriage until getting endowed.

Interesting point. The correlation between increased numbers of youth going on missions and their adult parents, etc., becoming temple worthy to attend with them would be interesting to dig into deeper.

[_ZelphtheGreat]

He is talking about the stench from all the lies coming out.