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Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:00 pm
by _mentalgymnast
Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:
I did want to believe, but I'm not going to find truth with the Elders, I think.

I might still find it somewhere else, and it won't hurt to look.


Before you can really accept or consider anything the Elders are telling/teaching you, you will probably have to first consider Jesus Christ. As in, are you willing to accept the possibility that He is the ONE who is the pivotal being in all of human history? Or was he just a man? Everything else hinges on that.

I would think you'd have to get past that, or at least work with that in your own mind/heart before you can really pursue much else that the Elders are sharing with you.

Regards,
MG

Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:03 pm
by _just me
mentalgymnast wrote:
Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:
I did want to believe, but I'm not going to find truth with the Elders, I think.

I might still find it somewhere else, and it won't hurt to look.


Before you can really accept or consider anything the Elders are telling/teaching you, you will probably have to first consider Jesus Christ. As in, are you willing to accept the possibility that He is the ONE who is the pivotal being in all of human history? Or was he just a man? Everything else hinges on that.

I would think you'd have to get past that, or at least work with that in your own mind/heart before you can really pursue much else that the Elders are sharing with you.

Regards,
MG


This is true, I think. If there is no Zombie Jesus the LDS church is automatically not true.

Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:04 pm
by _mentalgymnast
Equality wrote:
I have a question wrote:Atheists don't want to believe in God, they've already concluded there isn't one.

Oh, I don't know. I mean, I want to believe in dragons, but I don't. It's not that I think it's not possible to know there are no dragons; I truly don't believe there are any. But that doesn't mean I don't wish that there were.


IF there were dragons, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

OTOH, if there IS a God, would it do you any good to believe in Him? What would come to you as a result?

Regards,
MG

Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:10 pm
by _Gaelan_Ainsworth
mentalgymnast wrote:
IF there were dragons, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

OTOH, if there IS a God, would it do you any good to believe in Him? What would come to you as a result?

Regards,
MG


Surely the outcome is identical in either

If there are dragons, and I believe in them, then I am right, and I get to experience dragons. If I am wrong then there are no dragons, and I have fooled myself.

If there is a God and I believe in him, then I am right, I get to experience God. If I am wrong then there is no god, and I have fooled myself.

If there are no dragons and I believe in them, then I am wrong, and I will be disappointed, but if I don't then I won't ever notice the difference.

If there is no God, and I believe in him, then I am wrong, and I will be disappointed, but if I don't then I won't ever notice the difference.

So on the whole, a belief in dragons, and a belief in god are functionally identical, it's the differences in the entity itself that matters.

Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:26 pm
by _SteelHead
mentalgymnast wrote:
Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:
I did want to believe, but I'm not going to find truth with the Elders, I think.

I might still find it somewhere else, and it won't hurt to look.


Before you can really accept or consider anything the Elders are telling/teaching you, you will probably have to first consider Jesus Christ. As in, are you willing to accept the possibility that He is the ONE who is the pivotal being in all of human history? Or was he just a man? Everything else hinges on that.

I would think you'd have to get past that, or at least work with that in your own mind/heart before you can really pursue much else that the Elders are sharing with you.

Regards,
MG

The immediate problem with this is while there a some 2 billion people who believe in Jesus, there are nominally only 15 million Mormons. It is entirely possible to believe in Jesus without believing in Mormonism.

Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:33 pm
by _just me
SteelHead wrote:The immediate problem with this is while there a some 2 billion people who believe in Jesus, there are nominally only 15 million Mormons. It is entirely possible to believe in Jesus without believing in Mormonism.


But it's not possible to believe in Mormonism without Jesus.

But, seriously, the Jesus story has a lot of issues, too. LDSism just adds to them.

Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:37 pm
by _Fence Sitter
mentalgymnast wrote:IF there were dragons, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

OTOH, if there IS a God, would it do you any good to believe in Him? What would come to you as a result?

Regards,
MG


IF there were aliens, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

IF there were thetans, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

IF there were vodoo, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

IF there were magic, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

IF there were reincarnation, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

IF there were nirvana, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

IF there were no afterlife, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

IF there were parallel universes, would it do you any good to believe this? What would come to you as a result?

and so on and so on.

Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:45 pm
by _mentalgymnast
Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:
My thoughts off the top of my head. But don't take them as 'gospel truth'. My ideas are always open to adjustment. :smile:

Why would I be taught that God became what he is, if he is meant to have never changed?


In my mind I look at the cosmos as being a work in progress. Evolution is a principal of 'reality' that is part of everything. For all intents and purposes, to us, God is an unchanging Being. But that doesn't mean that along the spectrum...yes, eternity IS a long time...God hasn't also moved from something 'less' to something 'more'. Or from one 'thing' to something 'different'. A static universe/cosmos doesn't make sense to me. A dynamic and changing universe/cosmos does.

Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:What is the point of a living prophet if they are fallible and human, capable of ignoring revelation, and making up revelation if the mood so takes them, without divine intervention?


To restore lost truths. To act as key holder for ordinances (salvation,temple). An organizational head and/or file leader to be at the apex of the hierarchy/kingdom. To call people to repentance, obedience to God's law/commandments.

Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:What is the point of creation when an eternity exists outside of it, given that there is no guarantee I'll even hear about Jesus Christ? (Yes I know about baptism for the dead, if anything this strengthens my question, not answers it.)


If there hadn't been a creation, would you be asking this question? And would that matter?

Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:Why would a just and loving being design Adam with a flaw that would cause the fall of mankind and the suffering of billions, just for the plan of salvation to work, and further how can one claim that Adam had Agency?


I would ask the question, "By what means is a "plan of salvation" able to begin or get a jump start?" Are there other ways of accomplishing the same thing? If I can't come up with a better way that is a 'one size fits all' then I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to God as He designed the beginnings of the 'human experience' on this earth.

Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:Why does Satan exist, any powerful entity would remove opposition that was actually a threat, and opposition that isn't a threat isn't worth mentioning?


I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here...but I'd entertain the possibility that 'Satan' is more or less a 'calling' designated 'driver' for those that are disrupting the plan of the Father. What goes on the temple seems to indicate that Satan is a 'nameplate' for an individual entity that is the CEO, you might say, of 'the threat' or 'the opposition', as you say.

Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:Why does Satan fight, when presented with an all-powerful being that can stop your plans, and an all knowing being that can know your plans, why even try to resist, any plan you have that would work is instantly stopped, any plan that wouldn't work won't be stopped, proving it doesn't work?


In Star Wars there is the Force and the Dark power. The two are always at odds. If God is a creator/organizer of worlds and the populating of the same, He is not acting in isolation without opposing forces of darkness/evil. The more interesting question, to me, is WHY would there BE forces of darkness/evil in the first place? Why can't everything just be GOOD? The answer to that question seems to be in front of us as we look at human history, however. There seem to be two opposing forces at work in the system.

Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:Does God interfere with his plan by answering prayer, given that he is meant to be unchanging, if he answers prayer, this suggests that there is no agency, for people just pray for what they were programmed to do so?


These are all great questions and they can't be answered, not even close, either here or ever...in any sort of complete/satisfying way...so I hope that's under consideration.

This is a question that I have looked at over and over again. I don't know of an answer that is completely satisfying. I do think, however, if we look at the concept of "all things being present before God" and "God knowing the end from the beginning"...that's a starting point for trying to resolve this dilemma. That and quantum mechanics and time/gravity astrophysics and all that stuff. :smile:

Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:Why is Satan the bad guy for wanting to not give free will, his plan would save countless more people, and we could still experience the physical bodies, the test of creation, and the non spiritual existence?


Good questions! From the LDS perspective it all has to do with HAVING free will and the exercise thereof. One way of trying to visualize is looking at totalitarian/communistic systems. Are those people better off than those of us blessed to living in a relative state of free choice/agency?

Gaelan_Ainsworth wrote:Why would God allow his church to be corrupt for a century (or more)?


Jesus taught "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit." By it's very nature, however, a tree has to grow and mature before it bears fruit. Is it unreasonable to consider that along the way before the 'full corn shall appear' that there are going to be some blips and messiness along the way? As it it, the doctrine/practice and principles of the church have now come to a point in time, yeah correlation(?), where the tree is bearing fruit that is good/mature. But as I said earlier, if the nature of the universe/cosmos is that everything 'unfolds' or works through a process of evolution...it wouldn't surprise me if something is, as you say, "corrupt" before it matures.

"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
Why would God claim to reason as a man, then expect me to interpret bosom burning, signs, prophecies, and apparently ancient manuscripts?
[/quote]

He claims to reason with us as one man reasons with another. But God being God, I would assume He can only reason so far. At a certain point, it appears, we have to rely on other ways that God apparently 'communicates' with mankind.

Anyway, my two cents. It's fun to consider all this stuff. The thing is, the gospel itself is really kind of simple. That's what the missionaries are sent out to do. Again, don't expect them to be able to answer all of your questions. If you do, you'd be disappointed and want to quit. :sad:

Regards,
MG

Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:51 pm
by _mentalgymnast
I have a question wrote:

The Church doesn't teach Godtime, it puts specific earth time on each event.
Usually the answer is that God took away the evidence so members could exercise faith.


John Widstoe,James Talmage, Henry Eyring, B.H. Roberts, Cook (can't remember his first name right now), Trent D. Stephens, D. Jeffrey Meldrum, Duane E. Jeffery, & Forrest B. Peterson would agree with you?

There's more to it there, buddy. :smile:

Regards,
MG

Re: Concerns with my Investigation

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:55 pm
by _mentalgymnast
just me wrote:
I'm glad you are having fun with this. Mormonism is actually very fascinating!


That's for sure! I'd suggest googling "Blake Ostler" for starters...or take a short cut:

http://blakeostler.com/

...and reading some of his stuff. But don't try and discuss what you read from Ostler's writings with the missionaries. :smile: He's an active latter day saint that thinks alot. :smile:

Regards,
MG