Uchtdorf and McConkie on Grace.

[_RockSlider]

very happy with that response!

[_Jersey Girl]

A. "Ceeboo was exhorting us to work towards being good"

I didn't see that represented anywhere on the thread. IHAQ, can you quote the portion of Ceeboo's post that demonstrates the above?

[_I have a question]

Newark is a giant crap hole and don't let anyone tell you different.

I don't get what you mean....if man's laws are a determining factor, how are we really making a God in our own image.

Listen, you go ahead and reply, but honest and truly, I need to make a phone call to an actual Jersey Girl. I'll be back when I am done.

p.s. Yes, there are more like me. ;-)

Let me respond by making my point somewhat larger.

It's interesting that you wish to so strongly identify with Jersey. Nobody really cares where anyone comes from, yes it's of interest, but nobody cares that you come from Jersey, or Hoboken, or Brooklyn or Harlem or Palmyra etc. but you do. You feel a strong need to identify that you are a 'Jersey Girl'.

I make that comment not to insult, but to demonstrate my wider point. Religions exist for a similar reason. Humans have an inbuilt sense that belonging to a group is better than being an individual. It dates back to those hunter gatherer days when humans had a better chance of survival if they grouped together. Hunting in teams and nurturing in extended familial groups exponentially increased an individual's chances of surviving and rearing young. You see exactly the same inbuilt sense at work in the animal kingdom today. You see it more clearly in humans in deprived areas where gangs are prevalent. Youngsters join gangs not for the sex and drugs and rock and roll. They join a gang for the protection it affords them. Safety in numbers is inherent in our species.

Religion is merely an example of that inbuilt sense. Religions are a brand, the name of a tribe or gang. People join a religion because they believe (possibly subconsciously) that it increases their chances for survival, albeit the time window for survival is now being projected beyond this observable existence because earthly survival is not really in the same jeopardy it once was when hunter gathering was at its rawest.

Religions are just man made constructs born out of an inbuilt survival instinct. That is why religious tenets lack consistency and reason and logic. That's why any discussion seeking clarification about any religions ambiguous principles or doctrines end up in frustration. They aren't ultimately what's important to the group. They are simply the construct used by the group to portray the justification for the groups existence.

Wow, that opened it up a tad!

[_I have a question]

Great, because the more I read, the more convinced I am that we have - and will surely continue to have - enormous challenges in engaging each other. Please consider that while I am fairly certain that this is the case with us, I do not assign blame to anyone for this unfortunate mountain-of-an-obstacle we have in front of us - it simply is what it is and although not that common, it happens on these boards.

That's an interesting perspective, because the more I read the more I see an ocean of opportunity for discussion.

Just tell me how you are defining 'good' (your word choice) and we can move on.

I don't have the time, energy or desire to write out a 19 page post in an attempt to satisfy your question about "good" for several reasons. (Yes, considering how far apart we are right now, it would take me at least 19 full pages to explain my position/perspective)

A mere couple of them are:

1. I don't think you would understand my (the) position any better if I did extend the enormous effort.

2. Considering the walls of text that I already posted in this thread - and considering that after you read them, your top two take aways (A and B below) were/are so completely bizarre to me and so clearly the exact opposite of what my wall of text suggested, I have no confidence it would do any good (Yes! I used the word good again)

A. "Ceeboo was exhorting us to work towards being good"

B. "It really shouldn't be a difficult question, for the person stating their God wants us to try to be good, to answer"

So, please understand that I'm not very enthusiastic or encouraged to continue our exchanges.

Then don't, I'll live.

So instead of a 19 page encyclopedia, I offer only a few words.

Context is everything!

in my opinion You have it all bass-ackwards! All of it!

No matter how "good" you are (you can define good anyway you like - it doesn't matter one bit how it's defined or who defines it. We all fall short - We are all broken - We all have vices/struggles/anger/jealousy/selfishness/etc/etc.
At the end of the day - we, as human beings all fail miserably and then when a new day appears - we continue to fail some more.

That is the end of my few words.

So really it's all hopeless, we are all going to fail miserably no matter what.
What a depressing point of view, which obviously I don't share.

Thank you for trying to have an exchange with me - It is why I come and enjoy these boards - unfortunately (for both of us in my opinion) we aren't connecting at all and I am sorry for my part in that.

We are connecting, I'm simply not agreeing with you. But I am seeking to understand what you mean, hence why I ask questions for clarification.

Peace and best wishes, IHAQ.

Your never-again pastor,
Ceeboo

You give up too easily.

[_Mittens]

https://youtu.be/UGUOh7B13OM

My stand on Grace

[_Mittens]

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[img]http://i.imgur.com/xd4R4uO.jpg[/img]

[_Ceeboo]

Morning IHAQ!

We are connecting

Are we?

I certainly don't think so but I am willing to take a look.

Connecting - To establish successful communication. To join together. To unite.

In this thread - on more than one occasion - you have offered the following contributions about me (and on at least one occasion - your contributions about me weren't even directed to me - they were offered to other posters in the thread)

More than once you wrote: "Ceeboo is exhorting us to work towards being good"

Now, you could go back (and you should have went back in my opinion) in the thread and point me (us) to where you claim I was strongly urging you to work towards being good ........or........ You could simply read the thread and you will clearly find that your claim is preposterous and should not have been made a single time - let alone more than once.

The next example of how well you believe we are connecting can be found in another one of the claims you offer about me:

On more than one occasion, you make this claim about me:
"It really shouldn't be a difficult question, for the person stating their God wants us to try to be good, to answer"

Again, you could go back (and again, you should have went back in my opinion) in the thread and point me (us) to where you claim I stated my God wants you to try to be good.......or........you once again could simply read the thread and you will find that your claim is preposterous and should not have been made a single time - let alone more than once.


Successful communication? Nope!
Uniting? Nope
Is there a bridge? Nope!
Earnest exchanges? Nope

So are we really connecting?
Are we at the same restaurant- sitting at the same table - sharing ideas - coming together - uniting - earnestly exchanging ideas.

Or are we at the same restaurant - but sitting at different tables - on different sides of the room - and the totality of our connection is a simple wink that must travel 60 feet across a crowded restaurant.

Yeah - we aren't connecting, IHAQ.
Sorry!

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_I have a question]

Yeah - we aren't connecting, IHAQ.
Sorry!

Peace,
Ceeboo

Like I said, I'll live. *shrug*

[_Ceeboo]

Like I said, I'll live. *shrug*

That's awesome that you will live.

I was kinda hoping that in addition to living, you would also have something to say about the claims you have made in this thread. The silence is deafening!

*shrug*

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_I have a question]

Let's start over....

Far too many churches today perpetuate the impression that Christianity is primarily concerned with morality.

Not only is this a tragic mistake, it is entirely off-base.

I'm struggling to think of a Christian Church that doesn't perpetuate that impression.
Is there a Christian Church that doesn't peddle the morality doctrine?

Christianity is not about good people getting better.

Mormon Christianity is. Is your point that Mormons aren't Christians?

It is about real people coping with their failure to be good.

Define what you mean by 'good' so I can understand how 'people' are failing to be it.

The heart of the Christian faith is Good News not good behavior. (I respectfully ask my many Mormon friends to strongly consider this part of my sermon)

I'm strongly considering it, but I'm not seeing a Christian Faith that teaches it (other than the Church of Ceeboo!)