DiscussMormonism.com

Some Schmo wrote:As for your question as to why god would make separate races, I realize you're asking other theists, but the reason it's such a difficult question is that you're imposing your god on the issue. If you take your god out of it, it makes complete sense. It comes down to early ancestry migration patterns and the amount and quality of light the various locations people migrated to have. I heard Bill Nye talking about that just the other day.

I am well aware of this. But I'm asking a hypothetical question. Why would God separate humanity into various groups based upon race? And yes, I know that we're all homo sapiens sapiens and that biologically we're all pretty much the same. But yet we have divisions based upon geography in the ancient world. Asians, Africans, Europeans, Indians, etc.

If there IS a creator/God, I'm curious as to what His purposes would have been for these divisions.

Bill Nye. I like that guy. For years as I taught in the public schools I relied on his well known video productions to enhance my science curriculum. I have his book, "Undeniable" sitting right next to me. I'm on page 69.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:I am well aware of this. But I'm asking a hypothetical question. Why would God separate humanity into various groups based upon race? And yes, I know that we're all homo sapiens sapiens and that biologically we're all pretty much the same. But yet we have divisions based upon geography in the ancient world. Asians, Africans, Europeans, Indians, etc.

OK, I'll play.

He did it because he knew people are tribal by nature, so he prompted them to all head off in separate directions, evolve a little over the years to look a little different, so that when we saw each other again, we'd go nuts. That way, when he had the dude predict in the Bible "there will be wars and rumors of wars" it would sound pretty bang on. Because, let's face it... there are always wars and rumors of wars. It's kind of like predicting that Tuesday this week will come right after Monday.

How am I doing so far?

If there IS a creator/God, I'm curious as to what His purposes would have been for these divisions.

He's a prankster, that one!

Yeah man... I know. These are exactly the kinds of questions that make me wonder how people can cling so fervently to their idea of a god. Seems crazy to me. Not if this so called god really cared, anyway.

Bill Nye. I like that guy. For years as I taught in the public schools I relied on his well known video productions to enhance my science curriculum. I have his book, "Undeniable" sitting right next to me. I'm on page 69.

Regards,
MG

Yeah, I think he's pretty cool.

The Erotic Apologist wrote:

mentalgymnast wrote:It's not racist if the division is based on something other than those characteristics that are applicable and/or associated with being a racist.

So the post-Reconstruction Jim Crow laws were not necessarily racist.

White Southerners encountered problems in learning free labor management after the end of slavery, and they resented black Americans, who represented the Confederacy's Civil War defeat: "With white supremacy challenged throughout the South, many whites sought to protect their former status by threatening African Americans who exercised their new rights."[19] White Democrats used their power to segregate public spaces and facilities in law and reestablish social dominance over blacks in the South.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

I think that the Jim Crow laws met the standard of racism.

I'm thinking more along the line of divisions which take place, for example, in institutions of higher learning based upon differences which by necessity dictate a separation of one college from another. Undergraduates from Graduate School. One Department from another Department. Requirements for those who teach vs. those that primarily do research. Etc.

No one would call these divisions 'racist'. And before you ask any questions as to what in the heck this has to do with discrimination/racism/division in the Book of Mormon and/or the LDS church before 1978...go back and read my other posts. I'm a middle grounder on all of this.

I know, that's a coward's way out, right? But there you go...

I'm not discounting the fact that this issue is rather messy.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:I'm thinking more along the line of divisions which take place, for example, in institutions of higher learning based upon differences which by necessity dictate a separation of one college from another. Undergraduates from Graduate School. One Department from another Department. Requirements for those who teach vs. those that primarily do research. Etc.

Yes, and the division in the case of the good guys and the bad guys in the Book of Mormon is based on skin color. If this is supposed to be a metaphor for purity, it is, by far, the most poorly chosen metaphor in history, because, ya know... it betrays the author's racism.

I don't know what else you want to allow yourself to call it racist.

mentalgymnast wrote:I think that the Jim Crow laws met the standard of racism.

Good, because they undoubtedly were.

mentalgymnast wrote:I'm thinking more along the line of divisions which take place, for example, in institutions of higher learning based upon differences which by necessity dictate a separation of one college from another. Undergraduates from Graduate School. One Department from another Department. Requirements for those who teach vs. those that primarily do research. Etc.

No one would call these divisions 'racist'. And before you ask any questions as to what in the heck this has to do with discrimination/racism/division in the Book of Mormon and/or the LDS church before 1978...go back and read my other posts.

Yes, I've read your other posts.

mentalgymnast wrote:I'm a middle grounder on all of this. I know, that's a coward's way out, right? But there you go...

I'm not discounting the fact that this issue is rather messy.

Regards,
MG

No--you're simply trying to muddy the waters. You're using the same logic David Irving uses when he makes the claim that Holocaust Denialism is not necessarily anti-Semitic. Like you, he's fond of observing that Holocaust scholarship is "messy."

mentalgymnast wrote:

cognitiveharmony wrote: [God] curses sinful people with dark skin and...people with dark skin are unworthy of the priesthood[/color]

On its surface, I am uncomfortable with this. What I'm saying is that I'm open to the possibility that there's more to it than meets the eye and that God knows the end from the beginning and has made allowances for the missteps of people doing stupid things. But what that dividing line is between people doing stupid things and what is God's will...I don't really know and can't hope to figure out without things getting rather tangled up.

Regards,
MG

God supposedly appointing Jo Smith to be his spokesman.... things got "tangled up" the minute the first person started believing that.

Some Schmo wrote:Yes, and the division in the case of the good guys and the bad guys in the Book of Mormon is based on skin color. If this is supposed to be a metaphor for purity, it is, by far, the most poorly chosen metaphor in history, because, ya know... it betrays the author's racism.

If Joseph Smith and Co. wrote the Book of Mormon, then I'd agree with your assessment. If God is behind the Book of Mormon and it is an actual history of Lamanites/Nephites/Jaradites then we have something closer to what I'm referring to in regards to a 'division' based on factors that are not related to racism.

I'm not willing to call God a racist. I'd have to give Him the benefit of a doubt that He would have a pretty good understanding of why He might segregate/separate/divide one group of people from another.

Regards,
MG

grindael wrote:
God supposedly appointing Jo Smith to be his spokesman.... things got "tangled up" the minute the first person started believing that.

Correlation and simplified church manuals fixed that. Most folks aren't tangled up at all.

Of course, time will tell whether or not those pesky essays actually help or not. They seem to add to the tangle tango going on nowadays.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:I'm not willing to call God a racist. I'd have to give Him the benefit of a doubt that He would have a pretty good understanding of why He might segregate/separate/divide one group of people from another.

Old Testament, much?

mentalgymnast wrote:

grindael wrote:
God supposedly appointing Jo Smith to be his spokesman.... things got "tangled up" the minute the first person started believing that.

Correlation and simplified church manuals fixed that. Most folks aren't tangled up at all.

Of course, time will tell whether or not those pesky essays actually help or not. They seem to add to the tangle tango going on nowadays.

Regards,
MG

Time has already shown that they haven't helped at all. Only confused people more. Here is a great example of that confusion: http://rationalfaiths.com/the-pain-rema ... pics-page/