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grindael wrote:The 1837 edition is important because Jo worked on that one himself. He did not change "white" to "pure" in that edition.

I take it that in the context of ancient sacred texts, it still hasn't yet sunk in that "white" often means internal spiritual cleanliness or purity rather than a commentary on outward skin color. So the word choice is interchangeable and doesn't matter. That is especially obvious in a verse that is referring to the descendants of Nephites. Apparently the context of 2 Nephi 29 and 30 hasn't helped clarify that reality yet. Apparently the contemporary testimony from the Old Testament prophet Daniel hasn't helped yet either.

Fine. People can ignore all that and call Nephi a bigot if they like. But they're overlooking what 2 Nephi 29 & 30 are openly saying. Nephi may well be their ancestor.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Old Testament/dan/1 ... lang=eng#8

hagoth7 wrote:

grindael wrote:The 1837 edition is important because Jo worked on that one himself. He did not change "white" to "pure" in that edition.

I take it that in the context of ancient sacred texts, it still hasn't yet sunk in that "white" often means internal spiritual cleanliness or purity rather than a commentary on outward skin color. So the word choice is interchangeable and doesn't matter. That is especially obvious in a verse that is referring to the descendants of Nephites. Apparently the context of 2 Nephi 29 and 30 hasn't helped clarify that reality yet. Apparently the contemporary testimony from the Old Testament prophet Daniel hasn't helped yet either.

Fine. People can ignore all that and call Nephi a bigot if they like. But they're overlooking what 2 Nephi 29 & 30 are openly saying. Nephi may well be their ancestor.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Old Testament/dan/1 ... lang=eng#8

In the case of the Book of Daniel, It reads,

Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

The KJV translated "spotless" as white. Does that work within the framework of Nephi and the "Lamanites" and their descendants? 2 Nephi Chapter 5:

20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.

25 And the Lord God said unto me: They shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in remembrance of me; and inasmuch as they will not remember me, and hearken unto my words, they shall scourge them even unto destruction.

The Nephites were in fact destroyed. The Lamanites lived on and their skins were dark. Mormon "authorities" claimed as the Book of Mormon states that when their descendants repented their skins would turn white (or lighter, so they would then be "appealing"). Your argument doesn't negate these facts.

And 2 Nephi 29 is speaking of the Lord remembering "his seed" through the words of the Book of Mormon. Not that any would survive. Nephi says in Chapter 30,

3 And now, I would prophesy somewhat more concerning the Jews and the Gentiles. For after the book of which I have spoken shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many which shall believe the words which are written; and they shall carry them forth unto the remnant of our seed.

4 And then shall the remnant of our seed [not HIS SEED] know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.

The "remnant" from the Book of Mormon has always been identified by Mormon "authorities" as the descendants of the Lamanites. Title page of the Book of Mormon,

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

BEHOLD I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded of my father. And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Camorah, behold, the Nephites which had escaped into the country southward, were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed; and my father also was killed by them; and I, even I remaineth alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. But behold, they are gone, and I fulfil the commandment of my father. And whether they will slay me, I know not; therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth: and whither I go it mattereth not. Behold, my father hath made this record, and he hath written the intent thereof. And behold, I would write it also, if I had room upon the plates; but I have not; and ore I have none, for I am alone: my father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolks, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long that the Lord will suffer that I may live, I know not. Behold, four hundred years have passed away since the coming of our Lord and Saviour. And behold, the Lamanites have hunted my people, the Nephites, down from city to city, and from place to place, even until they are no more; and great has been their fall; yea, great and marvellous is the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And behold, it is the hand of the Lord which hath done it. And behold also, the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war. And now behold, I say no more concerning them, for there are none, save it be Lamanites and robbers, that do exist upon the face of the land; and there are none that do know the true God, save it be the disciples of Jesus, which did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people were so great, that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land, no man knoweth. But behold, my father and I have seen them, and they have ministered unto us. And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you. Behold, I make an end of speaking concerning this people. The Book of Mormon, 1830, p.538.

Moroni couldn't have made it clearer. There are no Nephites left in the land. He is the only one still alive.

What more is there to say?

The only ones left were the "translated" three Nephites who weren't having any children. The Book of Mormon was written to the "Lamanites" not the NEPHITES and Lamanites. This whole scenario could not be more clear for anyone who has actually studied and read the Book of Mormon with any kind of real comprehension.

Marion G. Romney, 1963:

One of the two purposes of the Book of Mormon as expressed on its title page is "to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever." "The remnant of the House of Israel" here referred to includes, of course, the Lamanites. It is concerning the covenants the Lord made with their fathers which run in favor of the Lamanites and culminate in their blossoming as the rose that I wish to speak.

One of these covenants was that a record of their fathers would be preserved and brought forth unto the remnant. Concerning this covenant, Enos said: ". . . after I had prayed and labored with all diligence, the Lord said unto me: I will grant unto thee according to thy desires, . . .

"And . . . this was the desire which I desired . . . that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed, and the Lamanites should not be destroyed, that the Lord God would preserve a record of my people, . . . that it might be brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be brought unto salvation--

". . . and he covenanted with me that he would bring them forth UNTO THE LAMANITES in his own due time." (Enos 12-13,"ENOS 1:16"> 16. Italics added.)

The Lord had made this same covenant with Nephi some fifty years earlier (See 1 Nephi 13:35), and he renewed it with Mormon nearly a thousand years later. (See Mormon 5:8-9, 12-13.)

Moroni, preparing to deposit the record in Cumorah, predicted that ". . . it shall be brought out of darkness unto light, according to the word of God; yea, it shall be brought out of the earth and it shall shine forth out of darkness, and come unto the knowledge of the people; and it shall be done by the power of God." (Mormon 8:16.) In Mormon, chapter eight, from which this prophecy of Moroni is taken, and in chapter nine is to be found a clear and accurate description of the world in which we now live -- a word picture written by a prophet, who by the power of God saw in open vision and made record of us, our times and doings, and of the chastening which awaits us, the inhabitants of this land, if we do not repent and heed the teachings of the restored gospel. Concluding the account of the covenant concerning the record to be preserved and brought forth, the Lord said to the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1828: "Behold, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi (speaking of the small plates being substituted for the 116 pages of manuscript lost by Martin Harris) which do throw greater views upon my gospel; . . .

"And, behold, all the remainder of this work does contain all those parts of my gospel which my holy prophets, yea and also my disciples, desired in their prayers should come forth unto this people.

"And I said unto them, that it should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers"; (D&C 10:45-47.)

Other covenants which the Lord made with their fathers were to the effect that the remnant would accept the gospel, regain their inheritance and former blessings and take part in the latter-day redemption of Zion.

Nephi, explaining to his brethren the words their father Lehi had ". . . spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, . . ." said, ". . . in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, . . . for the space of . . . many generations . . . then shall the fulness of the gospel . . . come unto [them] . . . from the Gentiles, . . .

"And at that day shall the remnant of our seed....

". . . be remembered again among the house of Israel; they shall be grafted . . . into the true olive- tree." (1 Nephi 15:7, 13-14, 16.)

"And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.

"And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore. they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.

"And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people." (2 Nephi 30:4- 6.)

The chief witness to the blessings awaiting the Lamanites was the resurrected Jesus. As he ministered to the survivors of the cataclysm which attended his crucifixion, he said unto them, ". . . my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation, yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, . . . for none of them (this generation -- that is, those who were then alive) are lost....

"But . . ." he continued, "it sorroweth me because of the fourth generation from this generation, for they are led away captive by him even as was the son of perdition; for they will sell me for silver and for gold, . . . And in that day will I visit them, even in turning their works upon their own heads." (3 Nephi 27:30, 32.) Mormon, of course, records the literal fulfillment of this sad prediction.

But Jesus did not conclude his prophecy about the Lamanites here. Notwithstanding their foreseen apostasy and degradation, he repeatedly affirmed the fact that the Father had given them this land as a permanent inheritance. (See ibid, 15:13; 16:16; 20:14; 21:Z.) He assured them that a remnant would survive to enjoy their inheritance although, by reason of their iniquity, they would forfeit it to the gentiles for a season.

He told of the coming of the gentiles. "For," said he, "it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father . . ." (Ibid., 21:4.)

". . . because of their belief in me, . . .

". . . and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day . . . the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them." (Ibid., 16:6-7.)

". . . that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled...." (Ibid., 21:4.)

Speaking of the role the remnant would play in this last gospel dispensation, Jesus assured them that they would he associated with other faithful members of the house of Israel in establishing in this, the land of their inheritance, a New Jerusalem. "And behold," said he, "this people"-- remember, he was speaking in America--"will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you." (Ibid., 20:22.)

Concerning the timetable for the fulfillment of these tremendous prophecies, Jesus said: ". . . I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place--. . .

". . . when these things which I declare unto you, . . . shall be made known unto the Gentiles . . .

". . . and shall come forth of the Father, from them unto . . .

". . . your seed . . .

"And . . . thy seed shall begin to know these things -- it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel." (Ibid., 21:1-3, 5, 7.)

Now, with this foreknowledge as an interpretative guide to the signs of the times, all who have seeing eyes and understanding hearts may rest assured that the fulfillment of the promises to the Lamanites is at hand. Most of the foregoing prophecies have already been fulfilled, and others are now in course of fulfillment. The apostasy and fourth generation destruction, the degeneration of the remnant, the coming of the gentiles, their establishment by the power of God as a free people in this land, their harassment of the remnant, the preservation of the promised record, and its coming forth by way of the gentiles are now all documented history.

For more than a hundred years the record of their fathers, the Book of Mormon, has been going to the Lamanites by way of the gentiles. And it is now being carried to them with increased tempo. Conference Report, April 1963, p.75-77

grindael wrote:But the Book of Mormon is not speaking (in that instance) of someone's soul being white, vs. being black or stained with sin.

2 Ne 30 is clearly speaking to Nephi's descendants. You're suggesting that Nephite descendants were dark-skinned?
Curious. What's the basis for such a claim?

This agrees with what Mormon "authorities" have said about those Book of Mormon passages:

Other Book of Mormon passages that speak of Lamanites are somewhat the tangent. As are later comments about the Lamanites. That's because we are speaking about Nephites, not Lamanites. I would ask that we focus on 2 Nephi 30:6, which was speaking of Nephite descendants. (That passage was the specific one I was originally asked to respond to in this thread.)

grindael wrote:Marion G. Romney, 1963:
One of the two purposes of the Book of Mormon as expressed on its title page is "to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever." "The remnant of the House of Israel" here referred to includes, of course, the Lamanites....

The remnant of the house of Israel includes the Lamanties? Certainly.
Is limited to them? Certainly not.

grindael wrote:The Nephites were in fact destroyed.

Well, the Nephites that stayed in the Americas certainly were destroyed.

However, others elsewhere were not. For example, 2 Nephi 3 makes it quite clear that a remnant of the descendants of Nephi's brother Joseph would be spared. (Joseph's descendants were Nephites.) The same holds true for a remnant of Nephi's descendants. Where those descendants were spared becomes something of a separate matter.

grindael wrote:And 2 Nephi 29 is speaking of the Lord remembering "his seed" through the words of the Book of Mormon. Not that any would survive. Nephi says in Chapter 30...

None would survive? I respectfully disagree. You're overlooking the context. Again, in Chapter 29, Nephi clarifies:
And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed...;
Nephi's descendants are included among those who would eventually read the record of the Nephites (or "the words of your seed"). If you doubt that intent, again consider D&C 3, reportedly dated to two years before the Book of Mormon was published, which clearly states that the testimony of Christ in the Nephite record was about to go forth to Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites, "through the testimony of their fathers."

The context of 2 Nephi 29-30 aligns precisely with what was said in 2 Nephi 3 and D&C 3. Nephites would survive.

grindael wrote:4 And then shall the remnant of our seed [not HIS SEED] know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.

Note the context of verse 4 in chapter 30. What we now call verse 1 begins, "And now behold, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you..." That is why "our" seed is used. Nephites included the seed of Jacob, Joseph, and Zoram, and converted Lamanites. "Our" means inclusion. It includes Nephi's descendants. And Joseph's descendants. And Jacob's descendants, etc. If you question that, go back again at the second verse in 2 Nephi 29, where the future of Nephi's seed is again referred to in the same context.

The "remnant" from the Book of Mormon has always been identified by Mormon "authorities" as the descendants of the Lamanites. Title page of the Book of Mormon,

What others have said about Lamanites is a separate matter. We are speaking here of the Nephites. The remnant is not exclusively the descendants of the Lamanites. Consider 2 Nephi 29-30, and note the very next verse in D&C, after mentioning that the latter-day descendants of Nephi, Jacob, Joseph, and Zoram would receive the Book of Mormon:
And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren the Nephites, because of their iniquities and their abominations.

So however you take the interpretations of "authorities," modern scripture (both the Book of Mormon and the D&C) acknowledged that latter-day descendants of both the Nephites and the Lamanites would receive the Book of Mormon. And in the same breath, D&C acknowledges that the Nephites were destroyed. There's no contradiction there. The ancient American Nephite civilization was destroyed. But a remnant of Nephites was spared elsewhere.

The Nephite record gives further evidence of that remnant, but this should suffice that the remnant discussed in the Book of Mormon often includes more than just the Lamanites.

Again, this is a tangent. But it goes to serve that 2 Nephi 30:6 is not talking about outward appearances, or of dark skin. For when Nephi says "our seed" in 2 Nephi 30, he is talking about the seed or descendants of the Nephites (the descendants of Nephi and his "beloved brethren" [2 Nephi 30:1]: Jacob, Joseph, Zoram...).

He is likely talking about your forefathers.

Again, consider the very first section (chronologically) in the Doctrine and Covenants, seven years prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon, from the words of Moroni to Joseph:

"Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming."

The very next section of the Doctrine and Covenants (chronologically) is the revelation that latter-day Nephites, Jacobites, Lamanites, etc, would soon receive a testimony of Christ, as promised, through the testimony of their fathers.

Based on this, to assert that the Lamanites is the only remnant is, in my opinion, taking latter-day scripture out of context.