Peterson explains why no Book of Mormon archeology found, yet....

[Guest]

Even B.H.Roberts agrees with me (another of those dang "authorities"):

The next important event affecting the movement of population and the possession of the land north and south was a war between the Nephites and Lamanites, that began with the invasion of Nephite lands by the Lamanites in 35 B.C....

B.H. Roberts agrees with you on what? Context please. Your whole excerpt starts, at its earliest point, describing events that took place decades after the Nephite exodus under Hagoth. Thus it doesn't even touch on those who left the Americas before then. In that context, your citations is clearly restricted to those Nephites who remained behind in Nephite territory. Apples and oranges. But let's continue with your quote anyway.

Shortly after these great cataclysms the Savior made his appearance among the Nephites and established his Church, which event was followed by a long period of righteousness and the loss of all race and party distinctions, such as "Nephite" and "Lamanite," etc.; and the people occupied the lands north and south without restraint according to their good pleasure.... [Centuries later, ] the Nephites at last having been driven from their southern strongholds in the north continent, proposed through their leader, Mormon, that they be permitted to gather their people at Cumorah--the Ramah of the Jaredites--that they might trust their fate to the dreadful dreadful arbitrament of one great conflict. The request was granted; the hosts were gathered, the armies which fought under the Nephite name were destroyed, save such as were mingled with the Lamanites. Anarchy followed, and then savagery for ages claimed the western hemisphere as its own. B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, Vol.2, Ch.12, p.202 - p.207

Grindael, that quote merely states that all of the Nephite army which fought under Mormon was killed with the exception of those of Mormon's army who joined the Lamanites. Note: this all took place centuries after Hagoth's ships left the scene. Again, your citation doesn't even address or touch upon the Nephite colonists who headed out of Dodge in their much earlier exodus. If you read the rest of the book you've cited, which perhaps you already have, B.H. Roberts affirms his belief that at least some of Hagoth's ships survived their journey.

[_hagoth7]

Only one more reference to Nephite wars will be necessary—and this the war that destroyed their civilization and annihilated them as a people. This war is mentioned here because it will bring us once more face to face with that strange parallelism we have found so many times in Book of Mormon events. This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples...

Yet another citation of B.H. Roberts that is focused in its scope to the war that took place in the Nephite homeland centuries after other Nephites had long since left under Hagoth. Again, B.H. Roberts believed that at least some of Hagoth's ships survived their journey.

...In all this war of extinction, and destruction there is only one important variation, and that is that in the case of the Jaredites, the annihilation was complete for both sides down to the last man; in the case of the Nephites and Lamanites only the Nephites were wholly annihilated; the Lamanites, their opponents, survived but only in a state of anarchy leading ultimately to the barbarism and semi-barbarism in which they were found by the Europeans a thousand years afterward.

And again, you're saying that this somehow demonstrate that B.H. Roberts believed the Nephite war under Mormon's command somehow included the annihilation of all of Hagoth's people who left the scene centuries earlier? B.H. Roberts simply doesn't say that here, however badly you might wish he did. On the other hand, Jacob and Nephi were quite clear about their descendants, as was Lehi, in his promise to their brother Joseph about Joseph's descendants.

[_hagoth7]

They separated into two groups after they arrived here, and while they became numerous upon the face of the earth there was a large portion of them who did not serve the Lord, and eventually they became so wicked that the Nephites or fair-skinned people perished, being destroyed by the Red Man."

Again, I take it you're not suggesting that the Nephite wars centuries after Christ somehow spun out to whatever isles of the sea Hagoth's ships had landed, and destroyed them too? Or is it just possible that Nephi and Jacob (and Lehi, speaking of their brother Joseph) were actually telling the truth? "Many" would survive. They would be scattered elsewhere to the four corners of the earth. And gathered later.

...The Lord blessed those who honored him and kept his commandments as long as they were faithful, but eventually they were entirely destroyed, leaving their records buried in the earth, where they remained until they were delivered to the prophet Joseph Smith.

OK. And? This quote also speaks specifically of those who remained behind in the Nephite homeland. It says nothing of Hagoth's colonists who left centuries earlier.

History has repeated itself many times. Mormon "Prophet" George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1932, p.43

In that vein, I offer for consideration a previous quote again:

Nephites were led away to preserve them from the destruction that was to become their brethren. Nephi's brother Jacob said, "For behold, the Lord God has led away from time to time from the house of Israel, according to his will and pleasure..." That was a pattern of God leading away people of Israel from time to time that was clear with the ten Northern tribes that were led away over a century before Lehi's departure from Jerusalem. It was true of the Mulekites. And of the Nephites. I believe it was also the pattern during the Nephite exodus under Hagoth, several decades before Christ, described briefly in Alma 63.

In the context of the paragraph above, I agree wholeheartedly with the authority you have cited. History has repeated itself many times.

[_hagoth7]

And stop with the "Your Forefathers" s***. My ancestors are from Ireland, and I don't believe in fictitious races of people.

Yet it's not s***. In the context of your ancestry, Hagoth's largest ship sailing northward, and the promised survival of Nephites on the "isles of the sea" from which they would be gathered, I'd suggest a careful reading of 2 Nephi 3, especially the last few verses. (In that context, Joseph Smith, who is alluded to in 2 Nephi 3, also has ancestors from Ireland.)

[_Chap]

And stop with the "Your Forefathers" s***. My ancestors are from Ireland, and I don't believe in fictitious races of people.

Yet it's not s***. In the context of your ancestry, Hagoth's largest ship sailing northward, ....

Sorry, you are already in deep, deep s***. That's like saying 'Frodo's ship sailingwestwards ...' and then deducing a hobbit-gene in Native Americans.

[_Tobin]

Why do Mopologists have such a problem with directions?!? hagoth7 - Europe is EAST of the Americas, NOT NORTH!!!

[_hagoth7]

Hi again Chap,

And stop with the "Your Forefathers" s***. My ancestors are from Ireland, and I don't believe in fictitious races of people.

Yet it's not s***. In the context of your ancestry, Hagoth's largest ship sailing northward, and the promised survival of Nephites on the "isles of the sea" from which they would be gathered, I'd suggest a careful reading of 2 Nephi 3, especially the last few verses. (In that context, Joseph Smith, who is alluded to in 2 Nephi 3, also has ancestors from Ireland.)

Sorry, you are already in deep, deep s***. That's like saying 'Frodo's ship sailing westwards ...' and then deducing a hobbit-gene in Native Americans.

Frodo? Now that's actually an interesting tangent. As you may know, J.R.R. Tolkien was actually a college professor who focused on early North European languages and manuscripts. He actually lifted Frodo's name (for his side project of writing fiction) from very old European chronicles and sagas. The historical Frodo lived in northern Europe long ago. Based on those early manuscripts, Frodo's forefather was said to have arrived on the shore of northern Europe in a boat. Based on the dates provided in some of those chronicles, his forefather's arrival on the shore of northern Europe dates to around the mid-1st century BC. (Translation: Frodo's seafaring forefather arrived on the coasts of northern Europe contemporary with Hagoth, at least one of whose ships sailed northward.) The accounts of Frodo's forefather intrigued Tolkien, and he wrote about it in considerable depth, and translated one of lengthier accounts into modern English (it was finally published after long delay last year, obviously posthumously).

I respectfully don't see how I'm in deep anything. Although what I've said in this thread actually is somewhat like saying Frodo's ship sailed westward. It is more like saying [the historical] Frodo's forefather's ship sailed first in the opposite direction, and many of his descendants would much later sail back in the opposite direction. What Tolkien and the early European chronicles/sagas have to say about the historical Frodo's family origins and character is, in my opinion, quite relevant to a discussion about the survival and migrations of Nephites, and even quite likely to grindael's ancestry (and perhaps yours). But perhaps it would be best to stick close to what the Book of Mormon and the D&C actually say about the Nephite colonists, their survival, and their return.

[_I have a question]

Hagoth, can you provide any references to Church leaders who took/take the same view/scriptural interpretation as you, that some Nephites survived? (Other than the three amigos who wander around finding car keys)

[_hagoth7]

Why do Mopologists have such a problem with directions?!? hagoth7 - Europe is EAST of the Americas, NOT NORTH!!!

I'm a Mopologist? (Never been called that before.) Do I get a free hot chocolate mug or something for that?
And, out of curiosity, precisely which mopologists have problems with directions?

As to directions, in this case we're actually both right. Northern Europe is northeast of most of the Americas (at least northeast of the most commonly suggested locations for Nephite epicenters). So both EAST and NORTH is correct for directions. But anyone sailing that direction, regardless of from where in the Americas they left, would likely be using the currents and tradewinds that moved mostly northward long before the currents and tradewinds ever veered east. And "northward" just happens to be the direction Hagoth's largest ship was said to have sailed (at least once).

(I'm quite willing to be mistaken in the minor detail of whether it was Hagoth's largest ship or not. Doesn't much matter either way, because at least one other of Hagoth's other ships sailed in an unspecified direction and never returned. )

[_Tobin]

Hagoth's ship (if such a person ever existed) sailed north. You are the one assuming he then sailed east. However, he could have sailed west. Or kept going North (and barring dying in the artic sea ice) arrived in Russia instead. The other problem with your assumptions (and there are NO facts to back them up in the least) is you need to assume he left from Central or South America to make your claim since if he left from North America he would have had to sail either east or west. However, there is no credible evidence of any Nephite civilizations there.

The problem I (and most others) have with you is you just make fanciful claims with no credible evidence (or reasons) to support them. But that isn't the worst part. You magnify your mistake by weaving real whoppers of fiction out of that. To be frank, every time you mention that Europeans are Nephites, I just can't help laughing at how ludicrous that sounds.