"Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

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Kishkumen
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by Kishkumen »

Moksha wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:47 am
So showing us scenes of a porn actress dressed in Temple garb is okay if it pokes the critics?
Evidently there is very little that is not deemed OK by some so long as it pokes at critics . . . or worse.
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by Dr Exiled »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:04 pm
Moksha wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:47 am
So showing us scenes of a porn actress dressed in Temple garb is okay if it pokes the critics?
Evidently there is very little that is not deemed OK by some so long as it pokes at critics . . . or worse.
Kishkumen:

I always got the impression from the brethren and those on the missionary committee I knew growing up that it was more secret than sacred. They were so obsessed with the sell side that they didn't want anything to screw up the sale to the new potential convert. So don't show the strange cultish clothing or practices to the outside world. It'll give off the "wrong" impression that we are a cult and that will kill sales.

This obsession to get and keep new members and retain the existing ones drove the changes to the temple ceremony over the years. The supposed "sacred" ceremony is modified with this goal in mind. Secrecy and numbers seemed to always outweigh whatever sacredness there was. Sure lip service was paid because getting people to make the loyalty oaths in the temple is what it is about for the Fund. Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues. One of the GA's I knew really well was the head of the temple committee for a few years and he was always obsessed with how a new temple increases tithing receipts in the area. If you build it, they will come and contribute.
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:50 pm
Kishkumen:

I always got the impression from the brethren and those on the missionary committee I knew growing up that it was more secret than sacred. They were so obsessed with the sell side that they didn't want anything to screw up the sale to the new potential convert. So don't show the strange cultish clothing or practices to the outside world. It'll give off the "wrong" impression that we are a cult and that will kill sales.

This obsession to get and keep new members and retain the existing ones drove the changes to the temple ceremony over the years. The supposed "sacred" ceremony is modified with this goal in mind. Secrecy and numbers seemed to always outweigh whatever sacredness there was. Sure lip service was paid because getting people to make the loyalty oaths in the temple is what it is about for the Fund. Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues. One of the GA's I knew really well was the head of the temple committee for a few years and he was always obsessed with how a new temple increases tithing receipts in the area. If you build it, they will come and contribute.
So, there is probably little point in arguing over perceptions of the temple, even from the perspective of a very business-oriented leadership class in the LDS Church, still . . . . Yeah, LDS missionary activities have been very sales oriented for a very long time. So, clearly the overall tenor and viewpoint manifested therein will be sales oriented. In that context, the sacred tends to become secret. In a crassly materialist paradigm, the sacred hardly has a hope of maintaining its sanctity. Everything is tainted by a "bottom line" orientation.

An yet, a lot of what you are saying is filtered through your own largely negative and cynical perspective. "Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues." Such statements don't reflect a balanced or fair reading of LDS theology and ecclesiology. The first problem that we have to deal with in order to deal fairly with this topic, at least in answer to your criticism, is to recognize the connection between the spiritual and the material in the Kingdom of God. If you dismiss the spiritual altogether, there is no possibility of seeing the spiritual purpose in material endeavors.

Now, I tend to think that the material has, in fact, nearly overwhelmed the spiritual in the LDS Church. Nevertheless, I still think that a fair treatment of the LDS Church must recognize where the issue is and what the relationship between the spiritual and material ideally might be in an LDS view.
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Kukulkan
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by Kukulkan »

Every sound bite from consig they used they interpreted as literal annd serious. Correct me if I'm wrong consig, but you quipping at Kwaku throughout the interview on MormonsimLive was meant to be in friendly jest to try to lighten the mood in an already overly serious conversation? The air in that interview from the get go seemed a little too stiff (Bill seemed very standoffish), and you were just trying to lighten the mood. That was just my interpretation, I could be completely wrong.

As for indulging in and relishing in those mocking the temple clothes or ceremony, I firmly believe it is unsavory and distasteful.
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by Dr Exiled »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:58 pm

So, there is probably little point in arguing over perceptions of the temple, even from the perspective of a very business-oriented leadership class in the LDS Church, still . . . . Yeah, LDS missionary activities have been very sales oriented for a very long time. So, clearly the overall tenor and viewpoint manifested therein will be sales oriented. In that context, the sacred tends to become secret. In a crassly materialist paradigm, the sacred hardly has a hope of maintaining its sanctity. Everything is tainted by a "bottom line" orientation.

An yet, a lot of what you are saying is filtered through your own largely negative and cynical perspective. "Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues." Such statements don't reflect a balanced or fair reading of LDS theology and ecclesiology. The first problem that we have to deal with in order to deal fairly with this topic, at least in answer to your criticism, is to recognize the connection between the spiritual and the material in the Kingdom of God. If you dismiss the spiritual altogether, there is no possibility of seeing the spiritual purpose in material endeavors.

Now, I tend to think that the material has, in fact, nearly overwhelmed the spiritual in the LDS Church. Nevertheless, I still think that a fair treatment of the LDS Church must recognize where the issue is and what the relationship between the spiritual and material ideally might be in an LDS view.
The cynicism comes from seeing how ordinarily human the chosen vessels were and how they acted in real life when the spotlight wasn't necessarily on them. They were nice people, but, their eyes were on material wealth, like a lot of us have. The Fund continues to grow as we speak.

Here is another anecdote as to why I believe that the brethren viewed the ceremony in terms of the bottom line and weren't really concerned with, other than lip service, to the supposed "sacredness" of the thing. President Hinckley never wanted to be bothered with requests from friends or acquaintances to perform the most sacred of sacred ceremonies, that of marriage. When he relented, he would be in such a rush to get the thing over with that he was out the door almost as he was performing the thing. I have a relative that worked in the SLC Temple and had to explain to a few disappointed families how that is just how President Hinckley was with respect to it. It happened a bunch and my relative thought that Hinckley poisoned the thing deliberately so no one would ask him again to waste his time. He didn't think it was that important obviously. Of course he was a very busy man. But, if the ceremony were so sacred and if he agreed to perform it, then at least pretend that it is a holy and sacred occasion and take a little longer than the 3 minutes the actual thing takes. Perhaps give a spiritual talk that the young couple can cherish in the future when busy schedules and kids pressure marriages.

It's just an example of what one individual did and Hinckley wasn't that social of a guy. I wasn't surprised when Dehlin interviewed Mr. Hendrix and Mr. Hendrix related how Hinckley didn't want to converse with anyone and would sit alone at lunch in the GA lunch area. Even so, the marriage ceremony is supposedly the end goal, at least that is what is said over the the pulpit, and the President doesn't really care too much about taking a few minutes out of his time to make some good memories for people he is supposedly close to.

Another example is the ceremony in the SLC Temple, itself. There are too many going through in a conveyor belt like fashion for it to be spiritual. Then, the Versailles like, gaudy set up of the celestial room begs for one to equate how material wins out over whatever spirituality there was. If it is so sacred, then cut down on the noise and have less crowded sessions.

Then, again, as you say, the material has overtaken the supposed spiritual. It seems incidental to the financial plan and breeds cynicism, at least in me.

Ideally? At a certain point, it gets lost in the true motive and is meaningless.
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by MG 2.0 »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:50 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:04 pm


Evidently there is very little that is not deemed OK by some so long as it pokes at critics . . . or worse.
Kishkumen:

I always got the impression from the brethren and those on the missionary committee I knew growing up that it was more secret than sacred. They were so obsessed with the sell side that they didn't want anything to screw up the sale to the new potential convert. So don't show the strange cultish clothing or practices to the outside world. It'll give off the "wrong" impression that we are a cult and that will kill sales.

This obsession to get and keep new members and retain the existing ones drove the changes to the temple ceremony over the years. The supposed "sacred" ceremony is modified with this goal in mind. Secrecy and numbers seemed to always outweigh whatever sacredness there was. Sure lip service was paid because getting people to make the loyalty oaths in the temple is what it is about for the Fund. Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues. One of the GA's I knew really well was the head of the temple committee for a few years and he was always obsessed with how a new temple increases tithing receipts in the area. If you build it, they will come and contribute.
I’m going to call BS on this. For this to be true in the literal sense…rather than your perception and/or fabrication…there would have to be a whole bunch of temple administrative staff, temple presidencies, sealers, and others, in on the ‘scheme’. When one is at the temple and works with and gets to know the myriad of different folks that work there, it becomes rather obvious…rather quickly…that the brethren and sisters working there have a testimony of the work that goes on. It’s not what you are making it out to be.

You are one voice on the internet. One voice. There are thousands of voices that would beg to differ with you.

Or are you saying that all of these testimonies of the validity and efficaciousness of what occurs in the temple are a product of brainwashed masses of dupes?

One might not be surprised that this would be your own point of view.

Regards ,
MG
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by Chap »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:16 pm
... these testimonies of the validity and efficaciousness of what occurs in the temple ...
In what exactly do the "validity and efficaciousness" you refer to consist? I mean, if someone said "Gosh, what happened last time I was in the temple was valid and efficacious", and he was wrong, how would one tell that he was wrong?
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by MG 2.0 »

Chap wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:44 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:16 pm
... these testimonies of the validity and efficaciousness of what occurs in the temple ...
In what exactly do the "validity and efficaciousness" you refer to consist? I mean, if someone said "Gosh, what happened last time I was in the temple was valid and efficacious", and he was wrong, how would one tell that he was wrong?
That the work encapsulated within the performance of the ordinances performed by God’s approbation and authority within the sacred walls of the temple provides the means by which God’s children can return to His presence and share in His glory.

Regards,
MG
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by Dr Exiled »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:16 pm
Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:50 pm


Kishkumen:

I always got the impression from the brethren and those on the missionary committee I knew growing up that it was more secret than sacred. They were so obsessed with the sell side that they didn't want anything to screw up the sale to the new potential convert. So don't show the strange cultish clothing or practices to the outside world. It'll give off the "wrong" impression that we are a cult and that will kill sales.

This obsession to get and keep new members and retain the existing ones drove the changes to the temple ceremony over the years. The supposed "sacred" ceremony is modified with this goal in mind. Secrecy and numbers seemed to always outweigh whatever sacredness there was. Sure lip service was paid because getting people to make the loyalty oaths in the temple is what it is about for the Fund. Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues. One of the GA's I knew really well was the head of the temple committee for a few years and he was always obsessed with how a new temple increases tithing receipts in the area. If you build it, they will come and contribute.
I’m going to call BS on this. For this to be true in the literal sense…rather than your perception and/or fabrication…there would have to be a whole bunch of temple administrative staff, temple presidencies, sealers, and others, in on the ‘scheme’. When one is at the temple and works with and gets to know the myriad of different folks that work there, it becomes rather obvious…rather quickly…that the brethren and sisters working there have a testimony of the work that goes on. It’s not what you are making it out to be.

You are one voice on the internet. One voice. There are thousands of voices that would beg to differ with you.

Or are you saying that all of these testimonies of the validity and efficaciousness of what occurs in the temple are a product of brainwashed masses of dupes?

One might not be surprised that this would be your own point of view.

Regards ,
MG
Nope. It's a question of priorities and where they are with the top brethren. The emphasis has always been, since I've been around and observant of those in my ward,stake, and friends' dads and grandfathers who were in top leadership, on the bottom line of tithing revenues. Hence the GA in my ward's obsessiveness with how tithing revenues increased when a new temple was built. He was our hometeacher and would spend his time telling us what he was doing. I loved the man but it is what it is. The temple, etc., is incidental to the revenue. It drives the monthly collections. The administrative staffs and other workers don't need to be a part of this. If they believe it and have a testimony of it, all the better. Further, the top brethren probably have a testimony of it too, just that their priority is about the revenue generated by it. My hometeacher GA believed in what he was doing while protecting the bottom line and relentlessly cutting costs. Disneyland execs probably believe in putting on a good show and get taken in by the emotion generated by their movies and theme parks. It's just that it is a business and religion is incidental to that. I think this is what happens when the leadership is full of businessmen, lawyers and hospital administrators. They continue to do what they do. You may not be in a place to admit it, hence the strawman conspiracy you say is necessary for businessmen to treat their stewardship as a business and perhaps get carried away with the Fund's growth.

Incidentally, in the foyer of my ward growing up, there would be periodic conversations among the GA's and prominent SLC lawyers, etc. on how our model was going to be able to financially take over the world some day and I think they may be right. If you have a dedicated leadership that won't pilfer the tithing funds, compound interest will mean that over time, the Fund will be able to theoretically purchase a lot of assets and perhaps be the biggest financial player or one of them. Anyway, those were some of the speculations from time to time.

No doubt many disagree with my take. How dare one say that the focus is on money. I get it. However, look at it this way. A wise steward would have to progressively devote more and more time to running the financial side as it keeps growing. Less and less time would be available to devote to spiritual matters as the Fund grows.
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Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple

Post by MG 2.0 »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:51 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:16 pm


I’m going to call BS on this. For this to be true in the literal sense…rather than your perception and/or fabrication…there would have to be a whole bunch of temple administrative staff, temple presidencies, sealers, and others, in on the ‘scheme’. When one is at the temple and works with and gets to know the myriad of different folks that work there, it becomes rather obvious…rather quickly…that the brethren and sisters working there have a testimony of the work that goes on. It’s not what you are making it out to be.

You are one voice on the internet. One voice. There are thousands of voices that would beg to differ with you.

Or are you saying that all of these testimonies of the validity and efficaciousness of what occurs in the temple are a product of brainwashed masses of dupes?

One might not be surprised that this would be your own point of view.

Regards ,
MG
Nope. It's a question of priorities and where they are with the top brethren. The emphasis has always been, since I've been around and observant of those in my ward,stake, and friends' dads and grandfathers who were in top leadership, on the bottom line of tithing revenues. Hence the GA in my ward's obsessiveness with how tithing revenues increased when a new temple was built. He was our hometeacher and would spend his time telling us what he was doing. I loved the man but it is what it is. The temple, etc., is incidental to the revenue. It drives the monthly collections. The administrative staffs and other workers don't need to be a part of this. If they believe it and have a testimony of it, all the better. Further, the top brethren probably have a testimony of it too, just that their priority is about the revenue generated by it. My hometeacher GA believed in what he was doing while protecting the bottom line and relentlessly cutting costs. Disneyland execs probably believe in putting on a good show and get taken in by the emotion generated by their movies and theme parks. It's just that it is a business and religion is incidental to that. I think this is what happens when the leadership is full of businessmen, lawyers and hospital administrators. They continue to do what they do. You may not be in a place to admit it, hence the strawman conspiracy you say is necessary for businessmen to treat their stewardship as a business and perhaps get carried away with the Fund's growth.

Incidentally, in the foyer of my ward growing up, there would be periodic conversations among the GA's and prominent SLC lawyers, etc. on how our model was going to be able to financially take over the world some day and I think they may be right. If you have a dedicated leadership that won't pilfer the tithing funds, compound interest will mean that over time, the Fund will be able to theoretically purchase a lot of assets and perhaps be the biggest financial player or one of them. Anyway, those were some of the speculations from time to time.

No doubt many disagree with my take. How dare one say that the focus is on money. I get it. However, look at it this way. A wise steward would have to progressively devote more and more time to running the financial side as it keeps growing. Less and less time would be available to devote to spiritual matters as the Fund grows.
OK. You’ve modified and expounded on the post I originally responded to. I would tend towards agreement with your general thrust in this post. Yes, the church runs on a business model of growth and capital gain which can then be invested in more growth. The Fund, as you refer to it. The corporate board, including GA’s, are going to be looking at the bottom line. For the spiritual work to be maintained and grow throughout the world, temples, etc., the bottom line of financial stability needs to be maintained. I suppose one would expect to hear talk of this in social gatherings of the governing groups who manage both the temporal and spiritual welfare of the church.

Your original post made it appear to be one giant scam and/or money making gig. This post allows for the possibility that there is a spiritual side underlying it all.

Regards,
MG
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