Re: "Midnight Mormons" Profanes Temple
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:04 pm
Internet Mormons, Chapel Mormons, Critics, Apologists, and Never-Mo's all welcome!
https://discussmormonism.com/
Kishkumen:
So, there is probably little point in arguing over perceptions of the temple, even from the perspective of a very business-oriented leadership class in the LDS Church, still . . . . Yeah, LDS missionary activities have been very sales oriented for a very long time. So, clearly the overall tenor and viewpoint manifested therein will be sales oriented. In that context, the sacred tends to become secret. In a crassly materialist paradigm, the sacred hardly has a hope of maintaining its sanctity. Everything is tainted by a "bottom line" orientation.Dr Exiled wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:50 pmKishkumen:
I always got the impression from the brethren and those on the missionary committee I knew growing up that it was more secret than sacred. They were so obsessed with the sell side that they didn't want anything to screw up the sale to the new potential convert. So don't show the strange cultish clothing or practices to the outside world. It'll give off the "wrong" impression that we are a cult and that will kill sales.
This obsession to get and keep new members and retain the existing ones drove the changes to the temple ceremony over the years. The supposed "sacred" ceremony is modified with this goal in mind. Secrecy and numbers seemed to always outweigh whatever sacredness there was. Sure lip service was paid because getting people to make the loyalty oaths in the temple is what it is about for the Fund. Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues. One of the GA's I knew really well was the head of the temple committee for a few years and he was always obsessed with how a new temple increases tithing receipts in the area. If you build it, they will come and contribute.
The cynicism comes from seeing how ordinarily human the chosen vessels were and how they acted in real life when the spotlight wasn't necessarily on them. They were nice people, but, their eyes were on material wealth, like a lot of us have. The Fund continues to grow as we speak.Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:58 pm
So, there is probably little point in arguing over perceptions of the temple, even from the perspective of a very business-oriented leadership class in the LDS Church, still . . . . Yeah, LDS missionary activities have been very sales oriented for a very long time. So, clearly the overall tenor and viewpoint manifested therein will be sales oriented. In that context, the sacred tends to become secret. In a crassly materialist paradigm, the sacred hardly has a hope of maintaining its sanctity. Everything is tainted by a "bottom line" orientation.
An yet, a lot of what you are saying is filtered through your own largely negative and cynical perspective. "Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues." Such statements don't reflect a balanced or fair reading of LDS theology and ecclesiology. The first problem that we have to deal with in order to deal fairly with this topic, at least in answer to your criticism, is to recognize the connection between the spiritual and the material in the Kingdom of God. If you dismiss the spiritual altogether, there is no possibility of seeing the spiritual purpose in material endeavors.
Now, I tend to think that the material has, in fact, nearly overwhelmed the spiritual in the LDS Church. Nevertheless, I still think that a fair treatment of the LDS Church must recognize where the issue is and what the relationship between the spiritual and material ideally might be in an LDS view.
I’m going to call BS on this. For this to be true in the literal sense…rather than your perception and/or fabrication…there would have to be a whole bunch of temple administrative staff, temple presidencies, sealers, and others, in on the ‘scheme’. When one is at the temple and works with and gets to know the myriad of different folks that work there, it becomes rather obvious…rather quickly…that the brethren and sisters working there have a testimony of the work that goes on. It’s not what you are making it out to be.Dr Exiled wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:50 pmKishkumen:
I always got the impression from the brethren and those on the missionary committee I knew growing up that it was more secret than sacred. They were so obsessed with the sell side that they didn't want anything to screw up the sale to the new potential convert. So don't show the strange cultish clothing or practices to the outside world. It'll give off the "wrong" impression that we are a cult and that will kill sales.
This obsession to get and keep new members and retain the existing ones drove the changes to the temple ceremony over the years. The supposed "sacred" ceremony is modified with this goal in mind. Secrecy and numbers seemed to always outweigh whatever sacredness there was. Sure lip service was paid because getting people to make the loyalty oaths in the temple is what it is about for the Fund. Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues. One of the GA's I knew really well was the head of the temple committee for a few years and he was always obsessed with how a new temple increases tithing receipts in the area. If you build it, they will come and contribute.
In what exactly do the "validity and efficaciousness" you refer to consist? I mean, if someone said "Gosh, what happened last time I was in the temple was valid and efficacious", and he was wrong, how would one tell that he was wrong?
That the work encapsulated within the performance of the ordinances performed by God’s approbation and authority within the sacred walls of the temple provides the means by which God’s children can return to His presence and share in His glory.
Nope. It's a question of priorities and where they are with the top brethren. The emphasis has always been, since I've been around and observant of those in my ward,stake, and friends' dads and grandfathers who were in top leadership, on the bottom line of tithing revenues. Hence the GA in my ward's obsessiveness with how tithing revenues increased when a new temple was built. He was our hometeacher and would spend his time telling us what he was doing. I loved the man but it is what it is. The temple, etc., is incidental to the revenue. It drives the monthly collections. The administrative staffs and other workers don't need to be a part of this. If they believe it and have a testimony of it, all the better. Further, the top brethren probably have a testimony of it too, just that their priority is about the revenue generated by it. My hometeacher GA believed in what he was doing while protecting the bottom line and relentlessly cutting costs. Disneyland execs probably believe in putting on a good show and get taken in by the emotion generated by their movies and theme parks. It's just that it is a business and religion is incidental to that. I think this is what happens when the leadership is full of businessmen, lawyers and hospital administrators. They continue to do what they do. You may not be in a place to admit it, hence the strawman conspiracy you say is necessary for businessmen to treat their stewardship as a business and perhaps get carried away with the Fund's growth.MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:16 pmI’m going to call BS on this. For this to be true in the literal sense…rather than your perception and/or fabrication…there would have to be a whole bunch of temple administrative staff, temple presidencies, sealers, and others, in on the ‘scheme’. When one is at the temple and works with and gets to know the myriad of different folks that work there, it becomes rather obvious…rather quickly…that the brethren and sisters working there have a testimony of the work that goes on. It’s not what you are making it out to be.Dr Exiled wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:50 pm
Kishkumen:
I always got the impression from the brethren and those on the missionary committee I knew growing up that it was more secret than sacred. They were so obsessed with the sell side that they didn't want anything to screw up the sale to the new potential convert. So don't show the strange cultish clothing or practices to the outside world. It'll give off the "wrong" impression that we are a cult and that will kill sales.
This obsession to get and keep new members and retain the existing ones drove the changes to the temple ceremony over the years. The supposed "sacred" ceremony is modified with this goal in mind. Secrecy and numbers seemed to always outweigh whatever sacredness there was. Sure lip service was paid because getting people to make the loyalty oaths in the temple is what it is about for the Fund. Give 'em a sacred fantasy as long as they pay their monthly dues. One of the GA's I knew really well was the head of the temple committee for a few years and he was always obsessed with how a new temple increases tithing receipts in the area. If you build it, they will come and contribute.
You are one voice on the internet. One voice. There are thousands of voices that would beg to differ with you.
Or are you saying that all of these testimonies of the validity and efficaciousness of what occurs in the temple are a product of brainwashed masses of dupes?
One might not be surprised that this would be your own point of view.
Regards ,
MG
OK. You’ve modified and expounded on the post I originally responded to. I would tend towards agreement with your general thrust in this post. Yes, the church runs on a business model of growth and capital gain which can then be invested in more growth. The Fund, as you refer to it. The corporate board, including GA’s, are going to be looking at the bottom line. For the spiritual work to be maintained and grow throughout the world, temples, etc., the bottom line of financial stability needs to be maintained. I suppose one would expect to hear talk of this in social gatherings of the governing groups who manage both the temporal and spiritual welfare of the church.Dr Exiled wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:51 pmNope. It's a question of priorities and where they are with the top brethren. The emphasis has always been, since I've been around and observant of those in my ward,stake, and friends' dads and grandfathers who were in top leadership, on the bottom line of tithing revenues. Hence the GA in my ward's obsessiveness with how tithing revenues increased when a new temple was built. He was our hometeacher and would spend his time telling us what he was doing. I loved the man but it is what it is. The temple, etc., is incidental to the revenue. It drives the monthly collections. The administrative staffs and other workers don't need to be a part of this. If they believe it and have a testimony of it, all the better. Further, the top brethren probably have a testimony of it too, just that their priority is about the revenue generated by it. My hometeacher GA believed in what he was doing while protecting the bottom line and relentlessly cutting costs. Disneyland execs probably believe in putting on a good show and get taken in by the emotion generated by their movies and theme parks. It's just that it is a business and religion is incidental to that. I think this is what happens when the leadership is full of businessmen, lawyers and hospital administrators. They continue to do what they do. You may not be in a place to admit it, hence the strawman conspiracy you say is necessary for businessmen to treat their stewardship as a business and perhaps get carried away with the Fund's growth.MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:16 pm
I’m going to call BS on this. For this to be true in the literal sense…rather than your perception and/or fabrication…there would have to be a whole bunch of temple administrative staff, temple presidencies, sealers, and others, in on the ‘scheme’. When one is at the temple and works with and gets to know the myriad of different folks that work there, it becomes rather obvious…rather quickly…that the brethren and sisters working there have a testimony of the work that goes on. It’s not what you are making it out to be.
You are one voice on the internet. One voice. There are thousands of voices that would beg to differ with you.
Or are you saying that all of these testimonies of the validity and efficaciousness of what occurs in the temple are a product of brainwashed masses of dupes?
One might not be surprised that this would be your own point of view.
Regards ,
MG
Incidentally, in the foyer of my ward growing up, there would be periodic conversations among the GA's and prominent SLC lawyers, etc. on how our model was going to be able to financially take over the world some day and I think they may be right. If you have a dedicated leadership that won't pilfer the tithing funds, compound interest will mean that over time, the Fund will be able to theoretically purchase a lot of assets and perhaps be the biggest financial player or one of them. Anyway, those were some of the speculations from time to time.
No doubt many disagree with my take. How dare one say that the focus is on money. I get it. However, look at it this way. A wise steward would have to progressively devote more and more time to running the financial side as it keeps growing. Less and less time would be available to devote to spiritual matters as the Fund grows.