DiscussMormonism.com

IHAQ wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:32 am

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:17 pm

Many thousands of people are spiritually nourished by their temple activity.

For the purposes of discussion...
I think that's a bold assertion with probably very little beyond anecdotal examples to support it. I'm equally sure many thousands of people are creeped out by their temple activity. Just because one person finds a thing sacred, is it then a requirement that other people must treat it as sacred?

You for got to say "and bored to tears snores."

Okay. I'm late to the party, so this time I've elected to read the entire thread before commenting.

I think that ridiculing the temple is in poor taste. I think that when done, it tends to do more harm than good. Sure, some might find it worth a chuckle, but it mostly only serves to feed the Mormon persecution complex.

That said, as consig pointed out, it's important to protect the right to do so. Censorship is one of the main tools of tyranny. It's also a large component of the BITE model (falling under the category of information control). It's also important to acknowledge that many people have felt traumatized over their experience with the endowment ceremony, and it's not my place to tell anyone how they should or should not process that trauma.

Finally, when Midnight Mormons aired that video, I'd argue that it was worse than when an "anti-Mormon" does so because of the element of hypocrisy involved. When an ex/non-Mormon does so, they are not generally acting in disharmony with their stated beliefs.

I agree that what Midnight Mormons did was worse. Indeed. And, I appreciate that people need to process their trauma. I think that that too is a sacred process. That said, I find anti-cult experts to be concerning, and I don’t think their work is necessarily the best fit for the LDS Church. The whole cult concept is problematic, if not deleterious, from a Religious Studies perspective.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:17 am

I agree that what Midnight Mormons did was worse. Indeed. And, I appreciate that people need to process their trauma. I think that that too is a sacred process. That said, I find anti-cult experts to be concerning, and I don’t think their work is necessarily the best fit for the LDS Church. The whole cult concept is problematic, if not deleterious, from a Religious Studies perspective.

I generally do not like using the word "cult" for a number of reasons:

1. Most people don't understand what a cult actually is.
2. It causes people to become defensive, making a productive discussion much less likely.

For these reasons, I prefer the term "high-demand religion", as even the most devout TBM can't really argue with that description.

I am curious as to why you find such work not to be "the best fit for the LDS church". Do you find that it's simply not applicable, or do you object to the work as a whole?

I realize that this is a significant deviation from the subject of this thread, and would support spinning off another one to explore the topic more fully.

jlamothe wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:37 am

I generally do not like using the word "cult" for a number of reasons:

1. Most people don't understand what a cult actually is.
2. It causes people to become defensive, making a productive discussion much less likely.

For these reasons, I prefer the term "high-demand religion", as even the most devout TBM can't really argue with that description.

I am curious as to why you find such work not to be "the best fit for the LDS church". Do you find that it's simply not applicable, or do you object to the work as a whole?

I realize that this is a significant deviation from the subject of this thread, and would support spinning off another one to explore the topic more fully.

High-demand religion is a great term. Certain religious groups deviate far enough from the norms of the surrounding society that they come into conflict with that society. It is difficult for people to stay inside a high-demand group. The LDS Church definitely demands more than a lot of other groups do. What bothers me about the LDS Church is their choice of things to demand. The decision to walk in step with socially conservative Christian groups on issues like the family was a bad decision, in my opinion. The Proclamation to the World on the Family is bad doctrine. The way the LDS Church treats the temple is counterproductive, and actually springs from the pressure of the same kinds of groups they have joined forces with on social issues.

I don't have a problem with high-demand religions per se. In fact, I have a bigger problem with those who freak out about them or ridicule them as a matter of course. Beneath many of these groups lies a lot of noble intentions that got warped partly by the pressures of outside society. If American society were not so cult-like in its demands that everyone conform to the tepidly Protestant lifestyle of bland consumption, then these groups would not have been under so much pressure in the first place, and fewer of them would have gone off the rails so badly.

Don't get me wrong, everyone is responsible for their actions, including the bad actors among the high-demand groups, but our attitudes about "cults" are big part of the problem, one that people generally do not recognize or take responsibility for.

What is really sad, however, is to see members of a high-demand group, such as we see here in the Midnight Mormons phenomenon, betraying their own principles in response to external pressure.

The thing that troubles me about such groups is the systematic dismantling of critical thinking that they tend to employ to retain their control, e.g.: "when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done", "doubt your doubts", "that's not essential to your salvation."

One does not necessarily cause the other, but they go hand-in-hand often enough for it to be a concern, and it's certainly present in Mormonism.

jlamothe wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:18 pm

The thing that troubles me about such groups is the systematic dismantling of critical thinking that they tend to employ to retain their control, e.g.: "when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done", "doubt your doubts", "that's not essential to your salvation."

One does not necessarily cause the other, but they go hand-in-hand often enough for it to be a concern, and it's certainly present in Mormonism.

Yes, that is a concern. I agree. Of course, our current environment in which mass media is fracturing a nation of supposed freethinkers who religiously parrot one of two ideological programs is also a problem.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:31 pm

jlamothe wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:18 pm

The thing that troubles me about such groups is the systematic dismantling of critical thinking that they tend to employ to retain their control, e.g.: "when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done", "doubt your doubts", "that's not essential to your salvation."

One does not necessarily cause the other, but they go hand-in-hand often enough for it to be a concern, and it's certainly present in Mormonism.

Yes, that is a concern. I agree. Of course, our current environment in which mass media is fracturing a nation of supposed freethinkers who religiously parrot one of two ideological programs is also a problem.

Agreed. It's also worth noting that similar tactics are often employed to achieve this. It's not exclusive to religion. To be fIair, I likely still have my own blind spots. I just find BITE to be a useful tool to help expose them.