Catholics beat Mormons again: Irish Same-Sex Marriage Vote

[_Aoife]

Lol. Correct that the image is of a Scottish character. I'll get around to seeing the movie at some point. I picked it for the hair, since I'm a curly-haired, freckled ginger.

[_DrW]

To get back on the topic of this (self-derailed) thread - the Catholic Church in Ireland seems to realize that the process of secularization of the Republic in the last decade or two has been due, in no small part, to the betrayal represented by the sexual abuse within the clergy of the Catholic Church.

Some look upon this sexual abuse as practically institutionalized, in that the steps taken to curb it were ineffective and no one in the Church hierarchy really seemed to care.

The problem didn't begin to be effectively addressed until the lawsuits started to cost the Church real money.

This fact is widely recognized now in the Irish press and other media, and in some quarters by the Catholic Church itself. The recent vote to change the Irish constitution to allow marriage equality provided stark evidence of the loss of credibility and influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

And thus the Republic of Ireland moves closer to joining the rest of western Europe as a secular nation.

Religion remains important in Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland remains socially and economically impoverished, to a large extent, because of religion.

Whether or not there will be a similar diminution of influence of the Mormon Church because of its recent cowardly admissions (by way of essay) that it has been less than honest about its history and has supported the de facto institutionalization of Lying for the Lord at the highest levels, has yet to be seen. However, I do see some of the signs and (lack of) signals since the last GC as encouraging.

[_Chap]

Religion remains important in Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland remains socially and economically impoverished, to a large extent, because of religion.

I think it is not just 'religion' that caused the problems in the north, but the use of religious identity as an identifying characteristic in a bitter political struggle between the majority protestant population which regards itself as British, and the (still) minority catholic population that sees itself as (in political terms) Irish.

You have to remember that the relatively industrialized north was up to a certain point in the 20th century markedly more prosperous than the rural south - another reason why northern protestants fiercely rejected any idea of joining any catholic-dominated Irish Republic, even to the point of threatening armed rebellion when Parliament passed the Government of Ireland Act 1914 (The 'Home Rule Bill') which provided for a unified devolved government of the whole island of Ireland - in effect, Irish autonomy as regards all internal matters. So in 1922 the north effectively demanded, and got, partition, and remained part of the UK while the south became independent.

Irish Republicans simmered with resentment against this, but large scale systematic violence only broke out in the 1960s, continuing till the Good Friday Agreement of 1998. In the three intervening decades much damage to the northern economy took place, with the results we see today.

[Guest]

Religion remains important in Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland remains socially and economically impoverished, to a large extent, because of religion.

I think it is not just 'religion' that caused the problems in the north, but the use of religious identity as an identifying characteristic in a bitter political struggle between the majority protestant population which regards itself as British, and the (still) minority catholic population that sees itself as (in political terms) Irish.

You have to remember that the relatively industrialized north was up to a certain point in the 20th century markedly more prosperous than the rural south - another reason why northern protestants fiercely rejected any idea of joining any catholic-dominated Irish Republic, even to the point of threatening armed rebellion when Parliament passed the Government of Ireland Act 1914 (The 'Home Rule Bill') which provided for a unified devolved government of the whole island of Ireland - in effect, Irish autonomy as regards all internal matters. So in 1922 the north effectively demanded, and got, partition, and remained part of the UK while the south became independent.

Irish Republicans simmered with resentment against this, but large scale systematic violence only broke out in the 1960s, continuing till the Good Friday Agreement of 1998. In the three intervening decades much damage to the northern economy took place, with the results we see today.

Thanks for the concise history. I wasn't aware of the extent of the disparity you described regarding the degree of industrial development in the North, as compared to the Republic, earlier in the 20th Century. This may help explain the near fanaticism apparent in the Republic with regard protecting the environment as they industrialize. It also helps explain the strong preference for promoting "clean" industries such as high tech and pharma, as opposed to "dirtier" heavy industries such as shipbuilding.

One comment that came up several times during the broadcast media coverage of the Constitutional Referendum campaign is that marriage equality would not stand a chance in Northern Ireland.

[_Maksutov]

Great posts, DrW and Chap. Thanks for your insights. Fascinating part of the world and in the midst of great change.

[_Doctor Steuss]

It was speculated that many voters would be unwilling to speak out in public for the change (because doing so would be to speak against the Catholic Church). However, when actually voting, the majority (mostly younger voters, it seems) felt less pressure to conform, and voted their conscience. The result was a solid majority for the change in the Irish Constitution to allow marriage equality.

I don’t know what parallels (if any) can be drawn between Irish Catholics, and American Catholics -- especially from a lone anecdote -- but…

My fiancé was raised by a gay couple. They were/are Catholic. My fiancé (and her moms) attended mass regularly, were active in the church, and she attended three different private Catholic school. Within the Catholic church, and private schools, she never experienced any form of discrimination, was never made fun of, or was ever made to feel left out or different.

Unfortunately, when they moved west, they had to enroll her into public school. It didn’t take long before she was routinely beat up, called a “lesbo,” and had parents forbid their children from associating with her and her “dyke” moms.

From her experience, it would seem that Catholics are much more forgiving and accepting of “sinners” than other religiously conservative groups -- and are able to see humanity in those who are different.

[_DrW]

It was speculated that many voters would be unwilling to speak out in public for the change (because doing so would be to speak against the Catholic Church). However, when actually voting, the majority (mostly younger voters, it seems) felt less pressure to conform, and voted their conscience. The result was a solid majority for the change in the Irish Constitution to allow marriage equality.

I don’t know what parallels (if any) can be drawn between Irish Catholics, and American Catholics -- especially from a lone anecdote -- but…

My fiancé was raised by a gay couple. They were/are Catholic. My fiancé (and her moms) attended mass regularly, were active in the church, and she attended three different private Catholic school. Within the Catholic church, and private schools, she never experienced any form of discrimination, was never made fun of, or was ever made to feel left out or different.

Unfortunately, when they moved west, they had to enroll her into public school. It didn’t take long before she was routinely beat up, called a “lesbo,” and had parents forbid their children from associating with her and her “dyke” moms.

From her experience, it would seem that Catholics are much more forgiving and accepting of “sinners” than other religiously conservative groups -- and are able to see humanity in those who are different.

Thanks for the observation. Happy to hear about this.

What part of this outcome do you think was due to the difference in schools themselves, as compared to the difference in the location (i.e., East vs.West) of the schools?

[_Doctor Steuss]

Thanks for the observation. Happy to hear about this.

What part of this outcome do you think was due to the difference in schools themselves, as compared to the difference in the location (i.e., East vs.West) of the schools?

Good question -- I'm not sure. One of the first places she lived with her moms was in Kentucky (then later, in Florida), so it’s possible it had to do somewhat with political makeup of the different locations.

I have always heard her speak fondly of Saint Viator (where her family attended church here in Vegas when she was in High School), and her faith community there. It may have been an anomaly though, as she has had trouble finding a similar church in any other parts of the valley that had the same feeling of family and acceptance as St. Viator.

[_DrW]

Posted by my friend Swearing Elder over on the Post Mo Board - and absolutely appropriate for this thread.



Caption (translated from the German): "These Irish are a scourge on humanity."

[_Manetho]

My fiancé was raised by a gay couple. They were/are Catholic. My fiancé (and her moms) attended mass regularly, were active in the church, and she attended three different private Catholic school. Within the Catholic church, and private schools, she never experienced any form of discrimination, was never made fun of, or was ever made to feel left out or different.

Unfortunately, when they moved west, they had to enroll her into public school. It didn’t take long before she was routinely beat up, called a “lesbo,” and had parents forbid their children from associating with her and her “dyke” moms.

From her experience, it would seem that Catholics are much more forgiving and accepting of “sinners” than other religiously conservative groups -- and are able to see humanity in those who are different.

The Catholic Church is so huge that it encompasses just about every viewpoint you can imagine on social issues. There are Catholics like the ones that make up FutureChurch, and then there are people like these.