Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

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_Symmachus
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _Symmachus »

Chap wrote:But now I do feel a little uncomfortable when I think about the feature of Mormon belief that Kishkumen has highlighted on this thread. Is there, I have to ask, any group of self-styling Christians of any significant size and historical persistence apart from Mormons who claim that after death our ultimate fate will be decided by anybody other than Jesus?

I can't think of one. And it is a difference at a very crucial point in belief structure, perhaps none more crucial: how, to put it crudely, are we to get into heaven?

I still refuse to say "Mormons aren't Christians" on the grounds set out above. But if Mormonism is Christianity, Jim, it seems that it may not be Christianity as any other significant Christian group knows it.


Isn't this true of a host of other categories? (theological, liturgical, epistemological, doxological, ontological, soteriological, Christological, etc. etc. etc.)

So why more crucial? What's so special about the soteriological assumptions of the institutional Church highlighted in the thread? Why does it matter whether or not any self-identifying Christians have positions that are similar to those in Mormonism? What is definitionally crucial for being a Christian vs. being a heretic has always been fluid in the history of Christian theology. Starting in the third century, the Donatists placed such a high value on the priesthood lineage (as it were) of priests that your salvation really did depend, in their view, on your leadership. In the fourth century, the problem of how one got into heaven (grace vs. works) was important to a lot of people (e.g. Augustine vs. Pelagius), but in the fifth century that receded as Christology became (again) the definitional hinge. The problem of grace vs. works didn't reappear as a central issue until Luther in the 16th century, and even then it was very much cast in terms of obedience to the institutional hierarchy in a way that it isn't today. In the 19th century, many self-styled Christians thought that getting into heaven depended a lot on who baptized you when and how. This is where all of that baptism gibberish in the Book of Mormon comes from, but this is almost a non-issue today (Mormons being the exception that proves the rule: they accept the validity of no one's baptism but their own, and that contempt is reciprocated by other sects and denominations, but most Christian groups don't make you get rebaptized in the true method the way they used to). And until Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Church was under the impression that, without the sacraments administered at the hands of their priests, you were not getting into any heaven that they would recognize, and as recently as the 1990s some Roman Catholic clergy thought they had the power to damn politicians who deviated in their policy views from the Vatican. So, maybe the soteriological status of the leadership is not just a Mormon thing, after all.

I do agree with Kishkumen that "the logic of this theology is still in force," but I'm not sure the original premise of that logic is all that present anymore. I mean, unless things have really changed in the last 10 years, this was really not a part of the Mormonism I encountered. There were stray quotes here and there and I do remember being told that by one bishop that I would be judged by my priesthood leaders (this just seemed logistically impossible, so I ignored it). He also thought, though, that the gulf of Mexico once contained Enochopolis, so I didn't feel compelled to take much of what he said that seriously. I wasn't required to take it at all seriously in any church setting and never encountered that again outside of books, books that I read of my own volition, not part of any catechistic process. My understanding of obedience was linked to their authority as revealers of god's will, not arbiters of salvation. To question their authority was to question either their access to revelation (and thus the access of the institution that called them) or to question god's will itself. So, despite the quotes from Brigham Young and even more recent sources, this does not seem like a central teaching of today's Brighamite Mormonism.

The danger of looking at this synchronically is to give too much weight to past theology and to attribute to members and the leadership beliefs that they may not hold. And then it creates unnecessary and insoluble chicken-and-egg knots (do leaders today emphasize obedience because of this deep strain in Mormon theology about the leadership's soteriological status, or is the leadership imputed to have this status because the institutional culture of the Church places, as any hierarchy necessarily must, a high value on obedience to authority?). Obedience to authority has been linked to Mormon soteriology probably from nearly the beginning, but looked at historically, the theological justifications for that link have changed, and they are not even consciously expressed today. I don't think that's because of any master plan to conceal theology; it's probably just because ritualized actions and ritualized thought far outlive their original contexts.

On the other hand, maybe there is a hidden theology that the leadership only allows us to glimpse when it is convenient for their purposes, but in that case we can only speculate what it is and why the conceal it. And if we're going to speculate, my inclination would be to speculate in quite the opposite direction: rather than guarding a closeted advanced theology, I think most of them have as simplistic an understanding of Mormonism as their conference talks suggest. They weren't promoted for their theological acumen but for their administrative expertise; and like most administrators in any context, they like to be obeyed and react harshly when questioned too intensely for their comfort.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_Manetho
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _Manetho »

Symmachus wrote:What is definitionally crucial for being a Christian vs. being a heretic has always been fluid in the history of Christian theology.

YES. People rarely realize how diverse "Christianity" really is, or has been. Mormonism is unusual compared with most Christians through history, but it is not the weirdest variety of Christianity there has ever been.
_consiglieri
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _consiglieri »

I am sorry to be late to the party.

I read the article the OP linked to at Rational Faiths.

The one thing that shocked me most was the conclusion that it makes no difference what a person believes about Jesus, it is what the person believes about Church leaders that is determinative of "apostasy."

It seems the LDS Church, which claims to be the one and only true church of Jesus Christ, is less concerned with what its members think about Jesus than about its own leaders.

I recall some wit paraphrasing the title of the church as "The Church of Thomas Monson of Latter-day Apostles."

I am starting to think there is more truth to that than a simple gag-line.

And I agree there is much to think about, here.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Kishkumen
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _Kishkumen »

Manetho wrote:
Symmachus wrote:What is definitionally crucial for being a Christian vs. being a heretic has always been fluid in the history of Christian theology.


YES. People rarely realize how diverse "Christianity" really is, or has been. Mormonism is unusual compared with most Christians through history, but it is not the weirdest variety of Christianity there has ever been.


Christianity has been and is diverse. Still, compared with the mainstream Protestant theology in America today, Mormonism is an outlier and has been for some time. Completely unique in every respect? No. But, not what I would call standard Christian theology today. Mind you, I do not consider heterodoxy or heresy a bad thing. It really is a matter of perspective.

To get back to an earlier post from our dear friend the consul, I am not sure how sublimated this theology has been, since I have not researched the matter. I know I was not aware of it as being central to the faith. That said, I received my endowment in 1989. I entered the mission field at the time when the LDS Church was making a deliberate effort to go mainstream and play nicely with Evangelicals. In arguing with anti-Mormons, we missionaries spent a good deal of time unwittingly pedaling falsehoods about polygamy, Adam-God, etc.

Perhaps my shock has much to do with my relative youth in a Church ruled by octogenarians. In my day, differences were minimized to win converts. Milk before meat. I chuckle ruefully at my ignorance at the time. Hell, I'm still catching up!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_zeezrom
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _zeezrom »

I apologize for my one-track mind recently. But here I go again. Below is modified text to fit the context. It is the difference between Mormons and other Christians in general: nomos vs phusis.

The Mormons are sticklers for obedience to the law (nomos ) as the guide to proper behavior on matters large and small. Unlike other Christians, the Mormons never had their doctrine written down. Instead, they preserved their system from generation to generation with a distinctive, highly structured way of life based on a foundation of obedience and faith.

This contrast between the two (Mormon vs Christianity in general) is a contrast between nomos and phusis because the Mormons depend on law (nomos) and “painful discipline” to train their members, while other Christians depend on their natural courage (phusis) to follow Jesus.

(https://greatbooksthefifth.wordpress.co ... vs-phusis/ and http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ection%3D4)
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_jo1952
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _jo1952 »

As far as the Church's claims to have the proper priesthood authority, this was something Joseph gave to the church because they had already rejected the simple gospel message of doing unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Even though Joseph had already explained that he had been told to join no religion, the Church finds no absurdity that what they got was yet another religion. In fact the new religion mimics so much of the Jewish religion (and there was no coincidence in this), that it makes the LDS prideful to be chosen and special; just like the children of Israel felt.

Everything the people wanted from God in order to prove to themselves and to the world that they were chosen and special is exactly what Joseph gave them. However, Joseph left clues inside of the "revelations" which he "received" (cough, cough) on behalf of the people. One big clue was given in D&C 84 wherein Joseph explains that the church is already under condemnation. If we research scripture about condemnation, we will find that a manifestation of this condition is how the church (or in Old Testament times, the Jewish religion) justifies disciplining her members.

Joseph was very clever. In D&C 84, after he tells the church she is under condemnation, he immediately gives them the idols in their hearts (inside of the same section!)...and they are the very stumbling blocks spoken of in Ezekiel 14:1-5. More and more idols are given to them as time went on. by the way, iniquity is the desire for inequality among men; this even though God is not a respecter of persons, and all are alike unto God. In other words, it is asking God to give them something which not all others have.

Ezekiel 14:1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.

2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?

4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.


So, we can see on one hand how the church protects her standing and her wealth and tries to preserve her importance in the eyes of the world; while on the other hand, we can see WHY she does these things. She is under condemnation; in a state of blindness...loving darkness more than light.

Here is what Isaiah had to say about religion...especially the trappings of the Jewish religion:

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.


It is no wonder that the heavens have been silent to the church for so long.

Meanwhile, the authority she thinks she has is really only the manifestation of her wanting to be like the children of Israel. Joseph "gave" her that authority; even though the authority isn't something real. She thinks it is, though; and she uses that false authority to continue the work which she performs. The work, ironically, is also a manifestation of the idols in her heart which Joseph gave to her in spades. The harder she pushes members to do the work, the more entrenched she becomes in her estrangement from the Lord. She is blinded by these stumbling blocks; she doesn't understand that these works are an abomination.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
_jo1952
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _jo1952 »

Hah! Even the concept of the "restoration" is absurd now. The church is proud that things have been restored in modern times, to the way that they were in ancient times...even like unto Moses. She does not see that this is NOT a good thing. Another something being called good, which is actually evil.

OMG, Joseph must have been face-palming all of the time! Even the Endowment (though he hid fantastic truths inside of it) is filled with in-your-face attempts to show the people the error of their desires. However, since the people looked at the Endowment as a special gift from God because they were so obviously chosen and special themselves, they could not see some of things that were made plain. As such, by the time it got into symbolism, she was completely lost to its message. Instead, the people look at the Endowment with eyes seeking for mystical/spiritual messages that only they are worthy to receive. This has blinded the church since she received it. Though it contains some of the most profound truths, she cannot see them. It is one of her biggest stumbling blocks.
_Chap
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _Chap »

Symmachus wrote:
Chap wrote:But now I do feel a little uncomfortable when I think about the feature of Mormon belief that Kishkumen has highlighted on this thread. Is there, I have to ask, any group of self-styling Christians of any significant size and historical persistence apart from Mormons who claim that after death our ultimate fate will be decided by anybody other than Jesus?

I can't think of one. And it is a difference at a very crucial point in belief structure, perhaps none more crucial: how, to put it crudely, are we to get into heaven?

I still refuse to say "Mormons aren't Christians" on the grounds set out above. But if Mormonism is Christianity, Jim, it seems that it may not be Christianity as any other significant Christian group knows it.


Isn't this true of a host of other categories? (theological, liturgical, epistemological, doxological, ontological, soteriological, Christological, etc. etc. etc.)

So why more crucial? What's so special about the soteriological assumptions of the institutional Church highlighted in the thread? Why does it matter whether or not any self-identifying Christians have positions that are similar to those in Mormonism? ...


Because it is a feature that makes the CoJCoLDS stand out from the whole spectrum of significant-size US religions that self-identify as Christians at this point in the 21st century, and probably (though I wouldn't like to have to prove that) most if not all the way back to the time of Joseph Smith himself. And the CoJCoLDS does not currently seem all that keen on being seen by other groups are anything but just another Protestant group.

Ordinary believers belonging to such religions (i.e. significant-size US religions that self-identify as Christians at this point in the 21st century) typically do expect that the religion they practice during their lives, whatever its teachings about faith, works or authority, will help them to a better destination after death. I've never before heard of a religion meeting the above qualifications in which, after you have died, you don't at some stage face the final and definitive judgement of Jesus who will say, in effect,"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" or "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".

Instead of which, to the immense surprise of the vast majority of self-identifying US Christians, they are (according to Mormonism) about to come face to face with a glorified version of a 19th century guy from upstate New York that they have hardly heard of, unless they happened to catch the relevant South Park episode.

If that teaching is still believed in amongst those at the top of the CoJCoLDS, they must see it as a huge obstacle to what seems to be the current 'mainstreaming' project, so it would be no wonder if they did not talk about it a lot. I do agree, however, that the lack of theological acuity at the higher levels of the organization may mean that few of them have much idea that this doctrine has been taught by prophets, discussed in General Conference, and has even appeared in print not too long ago.

Have FARMS or FAIR ever talked about this?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Symmachus
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _Symmachus »

Yes, it's weird, as is the expectation, also not shared by others in Christendom, that you need to wear a funny hat and shake hands with some angels in just the right sort of way in order to enter heaven. There are a lot of ideas about salvation and heaven taught in Utah Mormonism that mainstream Protestants would reject. So what?

you don't at some stage face the final and definitive judgement of Jesus who will say, in effect,"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" or "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".


Does Utah Mormonism not teach that this will happen at some stage? I thought that was the whole "judgement bar of Christ" business in Alma. That's of course early Mormonism, and later Utah period (and Nauvoo presumably) Mormonism just adds an extra layer, an extra layer which once was clearly expressed but now is muddied by confusion and/or an indifference that serves the modern Church's desire to be accepted.

Beyond the speculative fancy of deep-doctrine hobbyists, I rarely heard anything about Joseph Smith being a judge but certainly in seminary and institute I was taught that Christ would be my judge, and if memory serves there was something about the apostles of this generation having a say in the whole process. But Richard G. Scott (presumably still lucid) certainly is under the impression that Jesus is our final judge.

I grant that the hierarchical logic of the Joseph-as-judge view is probably still implicit in a lot of ways and, drawn to its conclusion, would make the judgement an MLM style affair: Jesus judges Joseph, who judges the Church leadership, who judge the local priesthood leaders, who judge their priesthood charges. And what about non-priesthood holders (you know, women)? Husbands judge their wives, I guess, and maybe Jesus judges the unmarried—or is being unmarried already an implicit judgement? So what's the point of Jesus's saving grace? It would render the whole thing inconsistent (but consistency has never been Christian theology's strong point; in fact, Christian theology is really just a series of responses to inherent inconsistencies). But is it clear from Mormon teaching whether bestowal of grace in the traditional sense and judgement of works are the same thing? Has Joseph Smith been believed to bestow saving grace? What does "judgement" actually mean in a Mormon or a mainstream context? Is it that the hierarchy would select a list of nominees for Christ's saving grace from which Christ will select the winners?

In the absence of any clear theological explanation, the Church would turn all of its members into deep-doctrine hobbyists, if it didn't waste so much of their time on pointless meetings and unpaid labor "missions."
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_Chap
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Re: Joseph Smith, Salvation, and Authority

Post by _Chap »

Symmachus wrote:Yes, it's weird, as is the expectation, also not shared by others in Christendom, that you need to wear a funny hat and shake hands with some angels in just the right sort of way in order to enter heaven. There are a lot of ideas about salvation and heaven taught in Utah Mormonism that mainstream Protestants would reject. So what?...


Basically because US Protestants do tend to think that achieving 'salvation' is pretty well the entire point of practicing their religion.

To such people, there are many aspects of Mormonism that, if heard of, sound simply weird or ridiculous. But the knowledge that the CoJCoLDS believed that getting the approval of Joseph Smith after your death is an essential stage in being 'saved' would, if widely known, be seen as deeply shocking.

And that reaction would be a (possibly insuperable) barrier to further progress in the church's unproclaimed but evidently long-term "mainstreaming" project in the US.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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