The Mysteries of Master Mahan

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_Kishkumen
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _Kishkumen »

ludwigm wrote:I enjoy Your material (as Symmachus' ones), even it is a hard task to understand everything, for a foreigner...


To be serious:
The Moses 5:31 Mahan thing is - for me - another nail in the coffin of Mormonism.
Masonry, Kabbalah, Sephiroth, Bible codes, and such systems are flashing my red signal of "this is rubbish". I am happy that I didn't joined. Unfortunately, my wife did...


Thank you, ludwigm. I appreciate your praise for my work. It is OK with me if you find it all to be nonsense. Quite a few people do. De gustibus non disputandum est.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _Kishkumen »

consiglieri wrote:The Book of Mormon refers to the incident of the brazen serpent twice, and both times in connection with the tree of life.

Nephi mentions the brazen serpent to his brothers in a sermonette given immediately after Nephi has his vision of the Tree of Life. (1 Nephi 17:41)

Perhaps more significantly, Alma also uses the figure of the brazen serpent:

O my brethren, if ye could be healed by merely casting about your eyes that he might be healed, would ye not behold quickly, or would ye rather harden your hearts in unbelief, and be slothful, that ye would not cast about your eyes, that he might perish? (Alma 33:21)



Alma's reference appears in close connection with his sermon on "planting the seed" in Alma 32, and two verses after the brazen serpent reference, Alma identifies the tree so grown as the tree of life:

And behold, it will become a tree, springing up in you unto everlasting life. (Alma 33:23)



What I find to be the most interesting aspect of Alma's usage is what he does just before he begins to preach this sermon. You will recall he is on the hill Onidah and he is preaching to the rich people who want nothing to do with him or his message.

Alma is approached by a multitide of poor people, and their spokesman asks him what they should do to worship God.

What Alma does here may be significant:

And now when Alma heard this, he turned him about, his face immediately towards him, and he beheld with great joy; for he beheld that their afflictions had truly humbled them, and that they were in a preparation to hear the word. (Alma 32:6)



I believe this idea of Alma turning his face to behold these poor people is unique in the Book of Mormon, and may be placed here specifically to reinforce the ideas that he will then teach concerning the tree of life (in whose branches the serpent is understood to dwell?), and then invoking the story of Moses and the brazen serpent for good measure.

In this regard, the introduction to Alma's sermon as well as the subject matter seem to have been carefully constructed along thematic lines that may have been familiar to ancient people from an Israelite culture.


consiglieri,

I don't know how to thank you enough for adding your erudition to the discussion. Understandably, most people have looked askance at my work here, but you, too, have seen how remarkably well all of this works. The Alma part is particularly exciting, since the Prophet (Joseph Smith) later alluded to Onidah and the hill again in the Book of Abraham, when God rescues Abraham from the altar. There, Onidah is rendered Onitah, and it is fairly clear, based on an allusion to the marriage of Joseph and Aseneth, that Onitah is On, also known as the Greek Heliopolis, the City of the Sun.

Well, there is much more I could say, but I have to get moving this morning. You have provided a lot of excellent grist for my mill and I thank you for it.

All best,

Kish
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _Kishkumen »

consiglieri wrote:It has long been recognized that Psalm 74:12-17, together with other Old Testament texts, preserves a tradition relating to the Creation where God defeats in battle a sea monster dwelling in the waters of chaos.

Psalm 74:12 For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.
13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
15 Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers.
16 The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun.
17 Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter.



The Genesis account of Creation does not include this tradition, though the “sea-monsters” are given primacy of place in the creature feature, being the first animals to appear. (Although the KJV translates it as “great whales,” the footnote in the LDS edition lets us know the Hebrew is literally “great sea-monsters.”)

(In a similar way, the NRSV translates “people” in Psalm 74:14 as “creatures” in an apparent attempt to avoid the strangeness of the reading, and yet there, too, is a footnote advising that the Hebrew is literally “people.”)

Although the Genesis account omits the episode of God breaking the heads of leviathan in pieces, what appears to be an obvious referent to the incident appears in the Eden account, where another (?) serpent appears to Eve, and after causing mischief in the garden, God tells the serpent that the seed of the woman “shall bruise thy head.” (3:15) Here, yet another footnote in the LDS edition informs us that the Hebrew for “bruise” is literally “crush, or grind.”

Here, we are reminded that Isaiah describes leviathan as a “serpent” and as a “dragon that is in the sea.” (27:1)

But just who are “the people inhabiting the wilderness” to whom God gave pieces of leviathan, as described in Psalm 74?

Because this text is so firmly imbedded in a Creation context, it is unlikely the feeding of leviathan in pieces to people would be contemporaneous (there were no people at that point, according to the texts we have), but would occur at some point long afterward. If the Old Testament speaks to this issue, the most likely candidate for “the people” thus fed would be the Israelites who famously wandered in the “wilderness.”

The phrase, “Didst cleave the fountain and the flood” simultaneously evokes images of both the Creation account as well as the Exodus, when the Israelites were led through the Red Sea preparatory to entering the wilderness which they inhabited for 40-years.

While the Israelites were “inhabiting the wilderness,” Exodus 16 tells us that God did “rain bread from heaven” for them (4), and when the people saw it and asked what it was, “Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.” (15)

When Israelites disobeyed Moses in leaving the manna until the morning, “it bred worms, and stank.” (20)

This is reminiscent of Jesus Christ, who in John 6 likens himself to the bread which God sent from heaven to feed the Israelites, while at the same time equating the bread with flesh:

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” (51)


The bread/flesh Jesus offers is contrasted with the bread/flesh(?) God gave to Israel in the wilderness:

“Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.” (49-50)


It appears elsewhere that the imagery of the great sea-monster/dragon/serpent of the chaotic waters that opposes God and his purposes survived into the New Testament, as Revelation informs us of the “serpent” who “cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.” (12:15)

In conclusion, it seems possible the Psalmist identified the manna God fed his people in the wilderness as being the flesh of the sea-monsters God slew in primordial battle.

The Genesis account as we have it may have originally contained this primordial battle account between God and the great sea-monster/serpent, as it would not only give background to the introduction of the serpent in Eden, but also inform God’s statement to the serpent that Eve’s seed would have power to crush his head.

Finally, it is possible Jesus drew upon the same imagery of the Israelites being fed the flesh of leviathan in the wilderness when he declared that he was the true bread from heaven in John 6, and then equated the bread from heaven with flesh; thereby equating himself in some sense with the primordial Leviathan.


Again, this is very remarkable stuff. I find the whole thing about the defeat of Leviathan interesting because, of course, Mehen and Ra are friends, not enemies, whereas the other serpent, Apophis, is the enemy of Ra. The odd thing about Apophis and Mehen is that they seem to be two sides of the same coin. We see the same kind of ambivalence toward Lucifer/Satan and the serpent in the Bible. Is the serpent evil, a helper of some kind, or a bit of both?

I would speculate that the image of hostility toward the serpent is something that comes later in the tradition because it seems like something Ba'al/Yahweh does, not Elohim. I will have to look at all of this much more closely, since I am not a student of the Hebrew Bible like our old friend David Bokovoy. It is striking, however, how God offers people the flesh of Leviathan and Jesus identifies himself as the bread of life. I think you are right to see Jesus in the brazen serpent and Leviathan. That's part of what makes God's defeat of Leviathan somewhat confusing.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Chap
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:That's part of what makes God's defeat of Leviathan somewhat confusing.


I think Yahweh has to defeat a watery chaos-monster, so he can be as cool as Marduk defeating Ti'amat. After all, the Hebrew deity has to have all the superpowers of everybody else's deity. Consistency is not the aim, and in any case there was no correlation committee throughout the period that the very disparate traditions that constituted 'ancient Judaism' formed and got tangled together.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/blc/blc11.htm

128. He turned back to Tiâmat whom he had defeated,

129. The Lord [Marduk] trampled on the rump of Tiâmat,

130. With his unsparing club he clave her skull.

131. He slit open the channels (i.e., arteries) of her blood.

132. He caused the North Wind to carry it away to a place underground.

133. His fathers (i.e., the gods) looked on, they rejoiced, they were glad.

134. They brought unto him offerings of triumph and peace,

135. The Lord [Marduk] paused, he examined Tiâmat's carcase.

136. He separated flesh [from] hair, 40 he worked cunningly.

137. He slit Tiâmat open like a flat (?) fish [cut into] two pieces,

138. The one half he raised up and shaded the heavens therewith,

139. He pulled the bolt, he posted a guard,

140. He ordered them not to let her water escape.

141. He crossed heaven, he contemplated the regions thereof.

142. He betook himself to the abode of Nudimmud (Ea) that is opposite to the Deep (Apsu),

143. The Lord Marduk measured the dimensions of the Deep,

144. He founded E-Sharra, a place like unto it,

145. The abode E-Sharra, which he made to be heaven.

146. He made the-gods Anu, Bel and Ea to inhabit their [own] cities.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_ludwigm
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _ludwigm »

Kishkumen wrote:
ludwigm wrote:I enjoy Your material (as Symmachus' ones), even it is a hard task to understand everything, for a foreigner...

To be serious:
The Moses 5:31 Mahan thing is - for me - another nail in the coffin of Mormonism.
Masonry, Kabbalah, Sephiroth, Bible codes, and such systems are flashing my red signal of "this is rubbish". I am happy that I didn't joined. Unfortunately, my wife did...

Thank you, ludwigm. I appreciate your praise for my work. It is OK with me if you find it all to be nonsense. Quite a few people do. De gustibus non disputandum est.

De gustibus non disputandum est.

An old maxim I like...
Sometimes this type of structures lead me to OD!
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _Kishkumen »

Chap wrote:I think Yahweh has to defeat a watery chaos-monster, so he can be as cool as Marduk defeating Ti'amat. After all, the Hebrew deity has to have all the superpowers of everybody else's deity. Consistency is not the aim, and in any case there was no correlation committee throughout the period that the very disparate traditions that constituted 'ancient Judaism' formed and got tangled together.


Yes, yes! Oh, thanks Chap. Marduk was the one I was looking for not Ba'al. Yes, indeed there is a lack of consistency. Of course, what one seeks in this kind of enterprise is something a little different from what one reaches for in mainstream secular scholarship.

I appreciate you pitching in like this, Chap.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_DrW
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _DrW »

Kish,

Lacking the background knowledge to contribute here, I just wanted to add my appreciative acknowledgement of the research you have done and of the way you have been able to pull disparate threads together to weave an interesting and potentially significant tapestry.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _Kishkumen »

DrW wrote:Kish,

Lacking the background knowledge to contribute here, I just wanted to add my appreciative acknowledgement of the research you have done and of the way you have been able to pull disparate threads together to weave an interesting and potentially significant tapestry.


Thank you, DrW. I have to admit that this is a very amateurish attempt to stitch things together on the fly. I have no doubt that on a certain level this runs directly contrary to your whole posture toward Mormonism, so I appreciate your mild response. What I am attempting to show here is how one might try to do something more like Nibley did with even a minimum of training and tools. I imagine that Gee, Muhlstein, and others could potentially do much better with this, so it is rather mysterious to my why they do not. I think it boils down to the fact that Nibley's approach is so methodologically fringe in some ways that few would sacrifice their reputation to take it up.

Instead they sacrifice their reputations defending completely bogus theories about the Book of Abraham.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_consiglieri
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _consiglieri »

Thank you for your kind words, Kish, and for your time, effort and research on this issue.

When you get to Margaret Barker, you may find she writes (as do others) of a time when the brazen serpent was placed in the Jewish temple as an object of adoration.

Barker links this object with the female divinity, Wisdom, and writes that it was taken out of the temple by reformers, likely around Josiah's time, who wanted to purify the temple and focus it strictly on the worship of Elohim/Jehovah.

The link of a (the) serpent with Wisdom seems easy enough to make from the Genesis story of the Garden of Eden where it is the serpent who tempts Eve with knowledge.

All the Best!

My hat's off to you!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Jesse Pinkman
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Re: The Mysteries of Master Mahan

Post by _Jesse Pinkman »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Reverend,

This is one of most fascinating threads I've read in a long time.

Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone 6 while on the stand in Sacrament Meeting, and looking out into the congregation.

Ha! I'll one up you there, Everybody Wang Chung. I have the iPhone 6 Plus!!! LOL

Love my iPhone! :biggrin:

OK, sorry for the quick derail.

A big thank you to Kish for starting this extremely interesting thread. I don't have anything to add, but I'm sure enjoying reading. I think this should be nominated for best thread of 2015!
So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

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