Right on Target!

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_Kishkumen
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _Kishkumen »

hans castorp wrote:Another bullseye!

Dee seems to have had an almost obsessive facination with the lost Apocrypha, especially the Book of Enoch.
Joseph Peterson, editor of Dr. Dee's Five Books of Mystery


Yes, Professor Castorp! Most interesting, no? Dee was fascinated by the Book of Enoch, so I don't think we can situate the end of his cooperation with Smith in the translation process at the end of the period of the Book of Mormon's production. Clearly Dee and Kelley had to have been involved in the retranslation of the Bible as well. Dee was probably sore that he was denied the opportunity of participating in the King James translation, so he moved upon the soul of Joseph to take up his mantle and return Dee's Enoch to his rightful glory.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _Kishkumen »

Symmachus wrote:So, have you ruled out the possibility that it could have been John Dehlin and Kate Kelly who might have channeled Spencer to Joseph Smith while they were still only pre-mortally existent? They could have been secretly in combination with John Dee and Edward Kelly, at that point post-mortally existent but presumably within the same communicative realm and probably within gliding distance.


Huh. Well, consul, I can only suppose that John Dehlin and Kate Kelly are descendants of John Dee and Edward Kelley. In the pre-mortal realm, they worked with their ancestors to help sow the seeds of the liberal revolution that the Mopologists and apostles alike just can't seem to dodge. Of course they can't! The powers of heaven are working against them. Generations of sages on both sides of the veil have teamed up to quash their Mesoamerican, corporate Mormon folly! I feel truly blessed to live in an age when we can see the great plan finally come to fruition.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_hans castorp
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _hans castorp »

Kishkumen wrote:
Yes, Professor Castorp! Most interesting, no? Dee was fascinated by the Book of Enoch, so I don't think we can situate the end of his cooperation with Smith in the translation process at the end of the period of the Book of Mormon's production. Clearly Dee and Kelley had to have been involved in the retranslation of the Bible as well. Dee was probably sore that he was denied the opportunity of participating in the King James translation, so he moved upon the soul of Joseph to take up his mantle and return Dee's Enoch to his rightful glory.


By the way, Reverend, do you know if anyone in the Egyptology department has compared the transliterated Egyptian in the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar with Dr. Dee's Enochian? I think there's a wealth of scholarly gold to be mined in Dee/Smith studies.

It's a shame that Dr. Dee's religious exercises utilizing sacred instruments such as crystals and mirrors, have, like the Prophet's, been dismissed as "magic" by the unenlightened.
Blog: The Use of Talking

"Found him to be the village explainer. Very useful if you happen to be a village; if not, not." --Gertrude Stein
_Kishkumen
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _Kishkumen »

hans castorp wrote:By the way, Reverend, do you know if anyone in the Egyptology department has compared the transliterated Egyptian in the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar with Dr. Dee's Enochian? I think there's a wealth of scholarly gold to be mined in Dee/Smith studies.


So much exciting work to be done, yes! If only the world of energetic young Mormon scholars would take this up and run with it. Scorndog was really onto something. Others too hastily dismissed these important discoveries regarding the archaic English of the Book of Mormon. Thankfully, Cassius scholars persevered, and now we are opening up a whole new field of study!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _Kishkumen »

hans castorp wrote:It's a shame that Dr. Dee's religious exercises utilizing sacred instruments such as crystals and mirrors, have, like the Prophet's, been dismissed as "magic" by the unenlightened.


Don't forget the breastplate!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Alf O'Mega
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _Alf O'Mega »

scorndog wrote:I had thought you were aware of some of these, Symmachus, given your linguistic expertise. But perhaps you are not familiar with them. Have you neglected the Germanic branch of Indo-European? Probably not. You seem to be a thoroughgoing scholar, a true philologist. Here is an example that Skousen pointed out some time ago, edited out for the 1920 version:

Mosiah 3:19
the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever but if he yieldeth to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and putteth off the natural man

The last OED quotation for "but if" = 'unless' is dated 1596 (Edmund Spenser, who was known to favor archaisms). Not in the KJB.

It's a perilous occupation to declare linguistic extinction. A single counter-example is all it takes to puncture such a claim.

Try this experiment. Go to Google and do a search for "but if" in the Books section. Use the search tools to confine the results to those from the 19th century. Now see if there are any counter-examples to be found on the first page.

My search found an 1877 article explicating some biblical passages:

This mode of speech is derived from the Hebrew, as Winer reminds us. For examples, see Gen. xxxii, 27, "I will not let thee go except (Heb. [characters] but if) thou bless me;" Lev. xxii, 6, "Shall not eat of the holy things unless (but if) he wash;" 2 Sam. v, 6, "Thou shalt not come in hither except (but if) thou take away the blind and the lame;" Ruth i, 17, "If aught but (except) death part me and thee;" Gen. xxxix, 9, "Nothing hath he kept from me except (but if) thee;" xxviii, 17, "This is none other but (but if or except) the house of God;" Esther ii, 15, "She required nothing but (but if or except) what the king's chamberlain appointed;" Isa. xlii, 19, "Who is blind but (but if or except) my servant?" (See in Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon.) ["Woman's Voice in the Church," New Englander and Yale Review, vol. 36 no. 1, pp. 123–124]

Apparently this usage was current in New England a couple of generations after the Book of Mormon was dictated. Honestly, how could Skousen have missed something like this? Was the OED his only source?
_scorndog
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _scorndog »

Sorry. This is not on point, Alf O'Mega. I humbly call on Symmachus to enlighten Alf, if so inclined.
_Gadianton
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _Gadianton »

holy crap, "but if?" That's what this Skousen stuff is about? And just one example?

In addition to the search for other 19th century examples which appear to be plentiful, I think my intuition runs along what EA says:

The first is that regardless of whether the Book of Mormon was written or translated by a 19th century author, that person attempted to mirror KJB language and in that attempt at using that style used words or phrasing that precede KJB era English because those archaisms persisted and blended into that person's understanding of how to write in the style of the KJB.


Yeah, I think that's what I'm thinking. When I looked up "but if" there were 15 hits for the KJV. This one is most interesting:

Romans 8:13
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


Sure, it doesn't mean "unless" here, but this is a prime verse that the Mosiah author could have played off of. These two verses are mentioned together all over the place in LDS resources due to the near identical theme.

Both have a long preamble that crescendos into the triumph of God with "but if".

we are under obligation,
not to the flesh,


to live according to the flesh--

for if you are living according to the flesh,
you must die;


But if...!

For the natural man
is an enemy to God,


and has been from the fall of Adam,

and will be forever and ever,

But if...!
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _Kishkumen »

Excellent work, Dean Robbers. I can't help but feel a little sad for Royal Skousen having his theory dashed to pieces. But, scholarship is not scholarship without criticism, and heaven knows that apologetic scholarship needs all the criticism it can get!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Symmachus
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Re: Right on Target!

Post by _Symmachus »

There is of course probably a much simpler explanation to all of this: mistakes. At least, "mistakes" from the point of view of writing. This was, after all, a dictated text, and if any of you have ever attempted to take dictation (or give it), you know how difficult it can be to fit spoken discourse into the strictures of writing, with its demand for clear-cut clauses and obedience to the signposts of punctuation.

The examples that Scorndog has given are two. One ("teasings") is irrelevant because a quick search on GoogleBooks reveals that that word was not only current in the 19th century but was used as recently as 2014. The other is not really that problematic either, though. Scorndog cites "but if" with the meaning of "unless." But does it really have that meaning in the passage?

For the natural man is an enemy to God
and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever
but if he yieldeth to the enticings of the Holy Spirit
and putteth off the natural man
and becometh a saint
through the atonement of Christ the Lord
and becometh as a child,
submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love,
willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him,
even as a child doth submit to his father.
And moreover, I say unto you
that the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread
throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people

(Mosiah 3:19-20, ed. Skousen)

Skousen reads this text from the perspective of the post-1920 Book of Mormon text, when James E. Talmage changed "but if he yieldeth" to "unless he yields." Skousen thus assumes that Talmage's emendation of "but if" is identical to Joseph Smith's meaning. He then goes to the OED, finds an entry for "but if" to be "unless" with a reference to Spencer and a few others, and then concludes that this is evidence of Elizabethan diction.

Suppose, though, that Talmage is trying to impose the kind of transparent syntactical coherence we expect in written discourse but which routinely absent from spoken discourse. If you read that sentence out loud, keeping the "but if," then it looks like Joseph Smith just started a sentence that got away from him. When this occurs in writing, it's called aposiopesis. Here is an example contemporary to Joseph Smith of a literary work with aposiopesis:

Mary Pinckney, in The Young Carolinians, 1818 wrote:I hope my letter safe in the British consul's hand. If the consul is the gentleman I suppose him to be, he married one of my aunts. It is long since death dissolved the tie that bound him to our family, yet I have heard my good aunt Woodberry say, he was a most tender husband, and will no doubt prove faithful to his wife's memory. How fortunate that I discovered his name. Surely he will not refuse to advance our ransom, well knowing our ability to repay the debt; but if I should be mistaken—many bear the same name. O, how I languish for certainty. Achmet promised I should be sent for; but I may be forgotten. Alas! I was compelled to depart without having it in my power to inform poor Ellinor that her St. Julien is a captive. How restless—how impatient—how anxious is my mind? Should Mustapha persist in sending her to the dey before her ransom is obtained, what will become of my hapless sister?


In what I have highlighted, the "but if" could just as easily be, "unless," but notice that the thought just breaks off, and the break is marked by the dash. Punctuation marks the aposiopesis. The Book of Mormon text was underpunctuated, you might say, and even Skousen adds punctuation in his edition. But if we repunctuated Mosiah 3:19 with a dash, it would look like aposiopesis.

As apologists like to point out, Joseph Smith weren't no ejiicated feller, and he was dictating his text by all accounts, so it would be no surprise to find features of oral discourse in that transcribed text. It would be surprising if they weren't there. What is surprising to me, though, is how the line between written and spoken is constantly ignored in these discussions, but I stress again: nobody speaks the way that they write. It's a different discourse. But when strings of spoken speech become written text, they end up looking like mistakes. Later editors, including Joseph Smith himself as you all know, ironed out those "mistakes," but Skousen, as far as I know, holds to the theory that the first revealed text is by definition without mistake and therefore he sees the diction of high Elizabethan poetry where he can. Has he explained anywhere why that is so?

Lastly, this is the ONLY example in the book of "but if" that could be construed as "unless," even though the collocation "but if" occurs more than two dozen times in the Book of Mormon, all with the same meaning as it has today, and all of them therefore consistent in their common meaning. There is only deviation from that consistency, but ne occurrence is not at all that significant in 500 pages of dictated text—especially when the Book of Mormon uses "unless" nearly ten times. Why would there be just this one instance of Elizabethan usage—from high poetry of all places—when "unless" is used everywhere else? If "but if" occurred every place that we would expect "unless," then there might be something linguistically unusually, but that's not what we have.

If you just read this aloud to yourself and treat it as an oral text, it seems pretty clear that the sentence—with all of those connective clauses and some subordinate clauses piled one on top of the other—just got away from Joseph Smith as he dictated. The "if" clause got so large, and he got lost before he could get to the "then" clause, to put it simply. That is extremely common in spoken discourse with extended protases ("if" clauses), and as an aside, ellipsis of a "then" clause is the origin of several syntactical features of Biblical Hebrew, if I may be so kind as to throw a bone to the apologists, as well as other languages (e.g. Homeric Greek, another written language shot through with markers of oral discourse).

Perhaps someone could point me to the "100+" examples of Elizabethan diction referenced on this thread, because all of the examples that Skousen lists in his Yale edition of the text could just as easily be explained as the kind of phenomena endemic to oral discourse that seem like they are "mistakes" when put into written form.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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