DiscussMormonism.com

Symmachus wrote:
So, before we assume that everything BYU does is motivated by faith promotion, let's not forget that other cliché about the Church, one nearer the mark: it is a business. No way in a hell are they gonna waste resources funding an MA in history that few will apply to, and if it's going to be unfunded, why even put it on the books at all? If there are serious historians, they will go on to schools with much better programs or skip a master's and go for the PhD.

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Of course the church runs BYU like a business, that is its only alternative. It has long since discovered that scholarship in fields like archeology, religious studies, history, and Egyptology only turn up those truths that are not "useful".

If any of those fields actually supported the religious claims of Mormonism you can bet there would be no lack of faithful candidates looking for degrees in those fields in spite of the lack of a economically viable post grad degree.

Fence Sitter wrote:Of course the church runs BYU like a business, that is its only alternative. It has long since discovered that scholarship in fields like archeology, religious studies, history, and Egyptology only turn up those truths that are not "useful"....

I respectfully disagree.

hagoth7 wrote:

Fence Sitter wrote:Of course the church runs BYU like a business, that is its only alternative. It has long since discovered that scholarship in fields like archeology, religious studies, history, and Egyptology only turn up those truths that are not "useful"....

I respectfully disagree.

Says the guy that honestly believes that Europeans are actually Nephites.

hagoth7 wrote:

Fence Sitter wrote:Of course the church runs BYU like a business, that is its only alternative. It has long since discovered that scholarship in fields like archeology, religious studies, history, and Egyptology only turn up those truths that are not "useful"....

I respectfully disagree.

To be clear, are you disagreeing with the lack of supporting evidence produced in those fields regarding Mormonism or are you disagreeing with the assessment of why BYU does not offer advanced studies in those fields, or both?

Fence Sitter wrote:.

hagoth7 wrote:.

Tobin wrote:Says the guy that honestly believes that Europeans are actually Nephites.

There may be some of them, but not all of them.
Especially we are Martians. A very different genus.

I also respectfully disagree, Fence Sitter, though probably not in the same way as Hagoth7. I remain unconvinced that theological concerns had anything to do with scrapping the MA. BYU is above all a university and behaves much like any other; the potential utility of any "truths" for Mormonism that might be gleaned from Egyptology or early 19th American history are likely several degrees removed from their primary motivations in running a university.

There was a time when it was rank heresy to believe in evolution in Mormonism. Biology, too, then had a lot of useless truths for the Mormonism dominant in the 60s-90s, but that didn't stop BYU from expanding its biology programs (it offers a PhD today, fully funded). Any potential theological implications don't seem to have been a factor in that or, if they were, they were overridden by interests typical of university administrators.

Also, I don't need to point out here that BYU rid itself of the only part of the university explicitly interested in (even dedicated to) the scholarly defense of traditional Mormon theology.

(p.s. BYU never had an Egyptology program, but very, very few universities in the world have ever offered Egyptology at any level; on the other hand, it is one of the few schools in the country where an undergraduate can learn Egyptian, since John Gee does teach the language there occasionally)

Symmachus wrote:I also respectfully disagree, Fence Sitter, though probably not in the same way as Hagoth7. I remain unconvinced that theological concerns had anything to do with scrapping the MA. BYU is above all a university and behaves much like any other; the potential utility of any "truths" for Mormonism that might be gleaned from Egyptology or early 19th American history are likely several degrees removed from their primary motivations in running a university.

There was a time when it was rank heresy to believe in evolution in Mormonism. Biology, too, then had a lot of useless truths for the Mormonism dominant in the 60s-90s, but that didn't stop BYU from expanding its biology programs (it offers a PhD today, fully funded). Any potential theological implications don't seem to have been a factor in that or, if they were, they were overridden by interests typical of university administrators.

Also, I don't need to point out here that BYU rid itself of the only part of the university explicitly interested in (even dedicated to) the scholarly defense of traditional Mormon theology.

(p.s. BYU never had an Egyptology program, but very, very few universities in the world have ever offered Egyptology at any level; on the other hand, it is one of the few schools in the country where an undergraduate can learn Egyptian, since John Gee does teach the language there occasionally)

Hi Symmachus,

Thanks for the response. I am not sure we disagree at all here. My point isn't about why they scrapped a particular program, it is more to the fact they don't have programs in areas that one would expect if those that oversee the University (the brethren) actually believed that scholarship would support the unique claims of Mormonism. As you point out, they have had an active biology program for many years, even when it was clearly in opposition to firmly held beliefs against evolution, but as we can see from the interchange between Roberts and more conservative leaders like JF Smith back in the 30's, even then there was disagreement about science versus scripture at the highest levels. Additionally evolution was/is not a theory that only disproves claims that are unique to Mormonism but rather an attack against Biblical fundamentalism itself.

Mormonism, like no other modern day religion, is subject not only to critical scholarship that counters the claims of Christianity in general but also to specific claims that can be examined critically without any collateral damage to mainstream Christianity. Areas like 19th century history, new world archeology, and, of course, Egyptology. These are areas that the church could be spending resources in scholarship, that, if it had any positive evidence, it could point to it and say, not only is Christianity correct but here is how Mormonism is God's one true church. It could set itself apart as the one true Christian Church. It can't and it doesn't because the leaders know that any investigation into those unique claims actually results in those truth that BKP described as no so useful.
So while the elimination of the MA program in question is probably just a financial decision at this time, it is telling in the fact that that is all it was. One more indication that the church really only is a business disguised as a religion and that the leaders themselves do not believe that there is any benefit in pursuing actual physical evidence to support its unique claims, because they know its not there.

Tobin wrote:Says the guy that honestly believes that (some) Europeans are actually Nephites.

And I honestly choose to accept that as a compliment.

hagoth7 wrote:I respectfully disagree.

Fence Sitter wrote:To be clear, are you disagreeing with the lack of supporting evidence produced in those fields regarding Mormonism or are you disagreeing with the assessment of why BYU does not offer advanced studies in those fields, or both?

1. I disagree with the assertion that the church runs BYU like a business. (Neither of us has an inside glimpse on how/why decisions are actually made, so it might be difficult for either of us to make a case either way. However I respectfully object to the mantra that the church is focused on nothing but money.)
2. I disagree with the assertion that such an approach (running BYU like a business) is the church's only alternative.
3. And I disagree with the assertion that fields like archaeology, religious studies, history, and Egyptology don't turn up useful truths.