DiscussMormonism.com

Darth J wrote:

ldsfaqs wrote: since I've already been an anti-mormon, I'm now more informed of who Joseph fully was

QFT

And why ldsfaqs gets cut no slack around these parts.

ldsfaqs wrote:
I don't know how apologists like me...

That. is. so. cute... that you consider yourself an apologist.

ldsfaqs wrote:I did however research a subject until I really found all the facts of the issue to make a proper judgment.
LIke I said, I had to go through some 20-30 pages or something of Google on a subject before I started finding the evidences that clearly demonstrated that there WERE in fact WMD's and Sadaam supported Terrorist groups etc.
Do you think most other people are going to study 20-30 pages of Google Material to make sure they are finding ALL the facts?
Nope.....

I do this with just about every subject

20-30 PAGES???? On a single subject???? Using Google? Holy crap! You're like a scholar or something.

I'm glad you finally found the evidence to support what you want to believe, and that it only took ignoring 20-30 pages of other evidence to find it.

ldsfaqs wrote:

cwald wrote:It really seems like a no-win for the church. Either Joseph Smith did father kids and the apologists look like fools, or it is proved he did not, and every prophet since Joseph Smith through Grant look like idiots. The apologists, like LDSfaqs, conveniently forget all those prophet statements, the Smoot hearings, and the testimonials from Joseph Smith own wives.

I don't know how apologists like me are "fools" for simply stating that Joseph "may" have had sex according to the evidence, because the evidence clearly shows both are possible, that he didn't have sex, or that he did.
It's only Anti's who jump YES HE DID when the evidence is unreliable. We've never said he "did not for sure have sex". You just falsely think we've said that, like you falsely claim of everything else.

Further, Anti's have been proven fools for years now by LDS scholarship, 100's of arguments most of you now no longer use that have been debunked that even you bigots can't argue against, and many more that you still ignore and have yet to figure out you have been debunked on.

You haven't proved us "fools" yet. The Book of Mormon for example is only being proven true, not false. 100's of things anti's said a 100 years ago proved the Book of Mormon false, now science has proven as true.
Before DNA for example you tried to use "body typing study's" against the Book of Mormon and Church positions, yet when DNA came along, I didn't even bat an eye, because it was the same false and stupid arguments that I had long before debunked, you were simply now using a new gun or bullets to spray.

Are you crapping me? You use the argument that there is no proof that Joseph had sex with his wives ALL THE TIME!

cwald wrote:Are you s******g me? You use the argument that there is no proof that Joseph had sex with his wives ALL THE TIME!

And you only prove anti-mormons don't read and comprehend.

What I state "all the time", is that Joseph "may" have had sex with some of his wives, but the evidence is contradictory and can mean other things.
I also state "all the time" that Joseph only practiced the Sealing Ordinance, not Polygamy, that he only had one official wife, and whether he had relations with any of his wives is a different question, one which I'm not willing to say ya or nay on until the evidence is solid.

Polygamy was my second primary issue I left the church and became anti-mormon and anti-religion.
It is one of the biggest things I've studied of anything, and the evidences go both ways, so I can't in good concious say one way or the other.

DarkHelmet wrote:20-30 PAGES???? On a single subject???? Using Google? Holy crap! You're like a scholar or something.

I'm glad you finally found the evidence to support what you want to believe, and that it only took ignoring 20-30 pages of other evidence to find it.

20-30 Google search pages..... Which means I read or skimmed about every link in those pages, which was many 1,000's of pages.
As to being a "scholar".... Where-else am I the average person to search for the necessary evidences as a non-Governmental employee without high clearance in the right government departments or military? Huh Mr. Smarty-pants???

1. I did not "search for what I wanted to believe", I searched for the actual truth because I found "inconsistency's" between news sources, little nuggets of truth popping up, for example the interviews I said I listened to. Those were not BELIEFS, those were first person testimony's Mr. Smarty Pants.

2. If you know how Google works, it works with "what's popular"..... not with what's TRUE.
Thus yes, sometimes a person has to actually dig to find the actual truth of things.

WMD's being in Iraq wasn't some fantasy, they were there, so there had to be reasons why most of the media was saying they weren't, and when I heard first person testimony's of military personel in the know, that provided further evidence of a problem.
So, trying to accuse me of simply trying to "support my beliefs", is ignorance.

Second, it's further ignorant because...... since when did the actual truth and facts become "supporting ones beliefs'???
You are clearly clueless of what you just said, as if that is somehow a "bad thing", to work hard enough to eliminate the propaganda out there, to find the actual truth. Classic.

My work ethic is what caused me to first join the church over other religions, and to then later become anti-mormon and anti-religion (to a degree) and to then restudy religion and the church, resolve my issues, and then rejoin it forever.
The anti-mormon work ethic is to quit, think you know it all, and be an ignorant bigot.

-sigh-

ldsfaqs wrote:What I state "all the time", is that Joseph "may" have had sex with some of his wives, but the evidence is contradictory and can mean other things.
I also state "all the time" that Joseph only practiced the Sealing Ordinance, not Polygamy, that he only had one official wife, and whether he had relations with any of his wives is a different question, one which I'm not willing to say ya or nay on until the evidence is solid.

Polygamy was my second primary issue I left the church and became anti-mormon and anti-religion.
It is one of the biggest things I've studied of anything, and the evidences go both ways, so I can't in good concious say one way or the other.

From another thread:

ldsfaqs wrote:Joseph's sealing to other mens wives were all Sealings, further leading to the fact that it was a Religious Ordinance, not in fact Polygamy as anti's like to claim.

To restate how I read your response - you're saying that these don't represent polygamy or polyandry on the part of either participant, and that these actions are not, in any sense, a marriage of any type. Is that correct?

ldsfaqs wrote:Further, if you read FAIR on these sealings, you will see they were done with full knowledge of the Husbands.

Of course, if you read an anti-mormon website, they lie stating Joseph's sealings were "hidden".

I may have just missed it, but I don't see that either FAIR or Hales (via the link on the FAIR page) reports that all were done with "full knowledge" of the husbands. I only see where FAIR notes that the other husbands "didn't complain". That claim can also apply to a dead person, yes? So it similarly applies to a living person, and your statement needs something more to back it up.

Can you point to the statement from the FAIR page that supports your claim?

ldsfaqs wrote:20-30 Google search pages..... Which means I read or skimmed about every link in those pages, which was many 1,000's of pages.
As to being a "scholar".... Where-else am I the average person to search for the necessary evidences as a non-Governmental employee without high clearance in the right government departments or military? Huh Mr. Smarty-pants???

1. I did not "search for what I wanted to believe", I searched for the actual truth because I found "inconsistency's" between news sources, little nuggets of truth popping up, for example the interviews I said I listened to. Those were not BELIEFS, those were first person testimony's Mr. Smarty Pants.

2. If you know how Google works, it works with "what's popular"..... not with what's TRUE.
Thus yes, sometimes a person has to actually dig to find the actual truth of things.

WMD's being in Iraq wasn't some fantasy, they were there, so there had to be reasons why most of the media was saying they weren't, and when I heard first person testimony's of military personel in the know, that provided further evidence of a problem.
So, trying to accuse me of simply trying to "support my beliefs", is ignorance.

Second, it's further ignorant because...... since when did the actual truth and facts become "supporting ones beliefs'???
You are clearly clueless of what you just said, as if that is somehow a "bad thing", to work hard enough to eliminate the propaganda out there, to find the actual truth. Classic.

My work ethic is what caused me to first join the church over other religions, and to then later become anti-mormon and anti-religion (to a degree) and to then restudy religion and the church, resolve my issues, and then rejoin it forever.
The anti-mormon work ethic is to quit, think you know it all, and be an ignorant bigot.

Well, I am glad you figured out the "truth" about WMDs, and I will concede that you probably know more about the WMD issue than anyone on this board, certainly more than me because I don't care and I don't suffer from Dunning-Kruger. But on the issue of Mormon topics on this board you are lecturing people who are as versed as you if not more. To pretend you are the only person here who has spent time researching Mormon topics is delusional. I guarantee I've read through more than 30-40 pages of google hits on just about every Mormon issue. I've devoured everything Mormon related, and I still don't think I know enough about every topic. If you read just about any exmormon story, you will see the same thing. When a TBM has a crisis of faith, they dig into the issues for years. It's all you can think about. You know what the penalty is for us if we're wrong? You don't think we were conditioned from a young age to fear Satan leading us astray and ending up in outer darkness? I guarantee every exmormon checked and double checked every resource possible before having the confidence to leave the church. It takes time and a lot of effort to break through the conditioning.

The anti-mormon work ethic is to quit, think you know it all, and be an ignorant bigot.

Do you really think lazy, incomplete research can lead a strong TBM to have the confidence to comfortably mock the church the way we do on this board? Do you know what a TBM risks losing when they choose to walk away from the church? And really who are the ones that quit when the facts don't support their side? Who are the ones that say things like, "I don't care because I know the church is true" and "I'm just going to put that issue on the shelf for now."

canpakes wrote:From another thread:

ldsfaqs wrote:Joseph's sealing to other mens wives were all Sealings, further leading to the fact that it was a Religious Ordinance, not in fact Polygamy as anti's like to claim.

To restate how I read your response - you're saying that these don't represent polygamy or polyandry on the part of either participant, and that these actions are not, in any sense, a marriage of any type. Is that correct?

ldsfaqs wrote:Further, if you read FAIR on these sealings, you will see they were done with full knowledge of the Husbands.

Of course, if you read an anti-mormon website, they lie stating Joseph's sealings were "hidden".

I may have just missed it, but I don't see that either FAIR or Hales (via the link on the FAIR page) reports that all were done with "full knowledge" of the husbands. I only see where FAIR notes that the other husbands "didn't complain". That claim can also apply to a dead person, yes? So it similarly applies to a living person, and your statement needs something more to back it up.

Can you point to the statement from the FAIR page that supports your claim?

1. Nothing about that is false, they were sealings, not Polygamy. My not mentioning other issues and facts in that particular statement does not equal me not stating things at other times.

2. Polygamy is living with and having a relationship with more than one wife, and legally married.
All of Joseph's Polyandry marriages were Eternal Only Sealings, not time, thus they can't be classified as Polygamy.
If Joseph actually did in fact have sex with some of his wives, they "might" be able to be classifed as Polygamy, because they were legally married/sealed, and some of those marriages were for "Time" which could mean intimate relations were possible, but they would be more "daliances" rather than actual polygamy. But, they could quality. However, since I don't find "certainty" yet on whether he did have relations with any, I'm not going to call it anything other than what the evidence shows, Sealings only.

3. Not having any public statement from some of the Husbands or otherwise doesn't somehow mean Joseph was taking advantage of Married mens wives. Clearly his doing this with whatever support of the husbands shows that most of the marriages at least were only Sealings, and not in fact for his perverted fun and pleasure as anti's claim.