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Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:52 am
by _DrW
ludwigm wrote:
DrW wrote:I have lived, gone to school, and/or worked in Europe on and off since the mid 1970's. For some of that time I was still active in the LDS Church.
I have lived, gone to school, and/or worked in Europe (Hungary) on and off since my birth. For some of that time - six years - I was an investigator in the LDS Church; maybe a Guinness item.

Some parallels found...

Welcome in the new club, DrW. Up to now, there is only two members of this club, but it may become the fastest growing club of the world.

--------------------------------------------------------
My minority report: the LDS church in Europe is not moribund.
It is dead, and it stinketh.
Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
(Search...)

Well, there you have it folks. Latest report from our correspondent on the scene in (Eastern) Europe.

Western Europe not far behind - if at all. In Ireland LDS make up about 0.1% of the population and estimates are that only about 20% of them are active.

What is there left to say?

I do like the stinketh part - appropriate Biblical touch (John 11:39).

Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:16 pm
by _Runtu
DrW wrote:Well, there you have it folks. Latest report from our correspondent on the scene in (Eastern) Europe.

Western Europe not far behind - if at all. In Ireland LDS make up about 0.1% of the population and estimates are that only about 20% of them are active.

What is there left to say?

I do like the stinketh part - appropriate Biblical touch (John 11:39).


For some reason, I'm reminded of my time in Bolivia, where the activity rate was somewhere between 10 and 20 percent. My wife and I served in Tarija, then a town of about 50,000 people, which had 4 branches. There was a relatively new chapel that houses 2 of the branches, but they had only built half of it, with the expectation the other half would be built as the membership required. The other 2 met in rented houses. Even then, on Sundays the buildings were virtually empty, with attendance at most around 25 to 30 people. Our branch had 250 members on the records, but when we went to church the first Sunday, we sat on the curb outside the church for almost an hour until an old woman and a teenage boy showed up. A half-hour later the branch president showed up and unlocked the gate. That was it in the branch: 3 active members out of 250, and the branch president didn't even live within the branch boundaries but had been pressed into service from another branch.

That was how it was all over Bolivia. Even in the large cities you could count on attendance being less than 50 people in an established ward. There were exceptions, usually in affluent areas, especially where there were Americans working for the church or for the US government. The ward near the US ambassador's residence was pretty well attended, as there were several American families associated with international aid and the US embassy. When I was in Cochabamba, our ward was pretty good-sized, with the head of the airport administration, some faculty and staff at the university, and of course our mission president and his American counselor. Only once was I assigned to a ward in a typically impoverished area where attendance was good. That was in a slum in La Paz where the ward met in a rented adobe house with a dirt floor. We probably had 80 people crammed in there, and they would open the windows and people would sit outside to be able to listen to sacrament meetings. But for the most part, attendance was very poor.

Imagine my complete shock when I was in the mission office and was shown the church's plans to build 52 new chapels across Bolivia, including 3 in Tarija. My only conclusion was they had adopted the "if you build it, they will come" program, as some studies have shown that religious groups are more successful when they have a visible presence in a community. So, even if you don't have any members, you build a chapel, and people notice it, especially since LDS chapels are often by far the nicest buildings in a given area.

But today, I'm told the activity rate is about the same as it was before, and the newer buildings stand as empty and unused as they were 30 years ago. A friend of mine visited the temple there and told me that it is almost entirely staffed by older missionary couples because they don't have enough endowed members to do it.

I think the reasons for the church's issues in Latin America are pretty simple: first, the focus of missionary work is numbers of baptisms, and missionaries rush through the discussions and baptize people who aren't committed and often don't even realize they've joined a church; second, as it is in Europe, the church is not a good fit for Latin America. I think what you call "Mormon craziness" (( assume you mean the more mystical elements of the church's story) actually plays well among some parts of Latin American society, but the regimented, corporate structure does not.

I'm not saying any of this to gloat or for schadenfreude. The church is what it is, and despite the emergence every few years of some new program for retention and reactivation, things don't improve because, culturally, the goals and means of meeting those goals never really change. Some of my Mormon friends and family are touting rapid growth in Africa, just as we were pointing to Latin America in the 1980s. I am not all that familiar with African culture, but my guess is that the same push for baptisms with little thought for retention will lead to similar results in Africa.

Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:48 pm
by _SteelHead
Runtu, you spend any time near the headwaters of Agua Negra? I sometimes daydream of doing a self guided trip to chase dourado on the fly there and wonder if it is feasible?

Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:53 pm
by _Runtu
SteelHead wrote:Runtu, you spend any time near the headwaters of Agua Negra? I sometimes daydream of doing a self guided trip to chase dourado on the fly there and wonder if it is feasible?


That's on the border between Chile and Argentina, right? So, no, haven't been there.

Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:54 pm
by _Runtu
I should use google before I reply. Sounds like a fascinating place.

http://www.fieldsportsmagazine.com/Fres ... -rush.html

Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:53 pm
by _Maksutov
Runtu wrote:

I'm not saying any of this to gloat or for schadenfreude. The church is what it is, and despite the emergence every few years of some new program for retention and reactivation, things don't improve because, culturally, the goals and means of meeting those goals never really change. Some of my Mormon friends and family are touting rapid growth in Africa, just as we were pointing to Latin America in the 1980s. I am not all that familiar with African culture, but my guess is that the same push for baptisms with little thought for retention will lead to similar results in Africa.


Never mind Africa, look at all of the souls in India and China. Between them they have almost 3 billion people. And just imagine doing the temple work on all of their deceased....surely the Lord has a plan for bringing the gospel to them? But where is it? Other missionaries have staked out the convertible populace and the cultural and political environments are completely alien to Mormon teenagers from the Mountain West. Looks like a helluva miracle is on order.

Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:56 pm
by _Runtu
Maksutov wrote:Never mind Africa, look at all of the souls in India and China. Between them they have almost 3 billion people. And just imagine doing the temple work on all of their deceased....surely the Lord has a plan for bringing the gospel to them? But where is it? Other missionaries have staked out the convertible populace and the cultural and political environments are completely alien to Mormon teenagers from the Mountain West. Looks like a helluva miracle is on order.


Back in my youth people used to say that things were really going to take off when we could send missionaries to Eastern Europe and Russia, but that's been kind of a dismal failure. So, yeah, maybe they can send kids on genealogy/proxy work missions. An inspired idea.

Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:39 pm
by _DrW
Runtu wrote:
Maksutov wrote:Never mind Africa, look at all of the souls in India and China. Between them they have almost 3 billion people. And just imagine doing the temple work on all of their deceased....surely the Lord has a plan for bringing the gospel to them? But where is it? Other missionaries have staked out the convertible populace and the cultural and political environments are completely alien to Mormon teenagers from the Mountain West. Looks like a helluva miracle is on order.


Back in my youth people used to say that things were really going to take off when we could send missionaries to Eastern Europe and Russia, but that's been kind of a dismal failure. So, yeah, maybe they can send kids on genealogy/proxy work missions. An inspired idea.

One church group that has the right idea when it comes to "missionaries" are the Seventh Day Adventists. They have a great medical center at Loma Linda University in CA and graduate members and other professional members of the Church are expected to spend from two weeks to one month a year volunteering their services at medical / dental clinics or other centers set up, or supported, by the Church overseas.

And (hard to believe) a great number of them actually do it. In fact, every Seventh Day Adventist professional that I know does this. One dentist I know actually has a "shadow practice" in Africa. He goes there year after year and renders real service - he helps people - and the people there love and respect him (and America) for his sacrifice. (And, by the way, he loves doing it. He brings back pictures and artifacts, puts them in his office, and is proud to tell patients about his interior decorations.)

Taking a page out of his book, my TBM brother (who served a mission in South America) and I did something similar in Central America for a while - until we got too busy with other things. Then we sent down some money and some equipment and wished our colleagues there well. They were disappointed, but we all remained friends.

While I am not proud of how we concluded our interaction with our colleagues in Central America, it did give me a great appreciation for folks who would commit to do this kind of thing year after year.

Perhaps the LDS Church should encourage their high school graduates to get a year or two of college and then spend the money to give these somewhat more mature young Mormons some specific skills training and send them out for a year to 18 months to work with and teach third world citizens (who wish to learn) the same specific knowledge or skill. There is a real need for basic math, computer, health, and even English instructors in many places in the world.

Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:55 pm
by _Maksutov
DrW wrote:
Runtu wrote:
Back in my youth people used to say that things were really going to take off when we could send missionaries to Eastern Europe and Russia, but that's been kind of a dismal failure. So, yeah, maybe they can send kids on genealogy/proxy work missions. An inspired idea.

One church group that has the right idea when it comes to "missionaries" are the Seventh Day Adventists. They have a great medical center at Loma Linda University in CA and graduate members and other professional members of the Church are expected to spend from two weeks to one month a year volunteering their services at medical / dental clinics or other centers set up, or supported, by the Church overseas.

And (hard to believe) a great number of them actually do it. In fact, every Seventh Day Adventist professional that I know does this. One dentist I know actually has a "shadow practice" in Africa. He goes there year after year and renders real service - he helps people - and the people there love and respect him (and America) for his sacrifice. (And, by the way, he loves doing it. He brings back pictures and artifacts, puts them in his office, and is proud to tell patients about his interior decorations.)

Taking a page out of his book, my TBM brother (who served a mission in South America) and I did something similar in Central America for a while - until we got too busy with other things. Then we sent down some money and some equipment and wished our colleagues there well. They were disappointed, but we all remained friends.

While I am not proud of how we concluded our interaction with our colleagues in Central America, it did give me a great appreciation for folks who would commit to do this kind of thing year after year.

Perhaps the LDS Church should encourage their high school graduates to get a year or two of college and then spend the money to give these somewhat more mature young Mormons some specific skills training and send them out for a year to 18 months to work with and teach third world citizens (who wish to learn) the same specific knowledge or skill. There is a real need for basic math, computer, health, and even English instructors in many places in the world.


Very interesting comments on the SDAs. The SDAs started out of much of the same environment in the burned over district, had a visionary prophetess, bogus history that is still unraveling, but they had a remarkable difference: the SDAs became involved in pursuits that had considerable secular payoffs, like health care, cereal and vegetarian dietary development and international health missions. Their biggest recent missteps have been among their heavy sponsorship of creationists.

The Mormons had their MoTabs and Donnie and Marie, but really nothing to offer the non-Mormon world except a lot of frankly bizarre stories and claims. Nobody took ZCMI national. The Deseret Alphabet failed. No Mormon became president. The Mormons invested their energies and creativity into forming a material culture in the Mountain West. They created intense social coherence among themselves but the eusocial hive of Deseret really isn't scalable or transportable. They've created a sort of ghetto rather than an international presence. Their survival might depend on it, which means that their days are numbered. The coherence, imposed and maintained through bogus history, intimate manipulations and political exclusion, is dissolving. The Great Basin Kingdom is no more.

Re: New Europe Presidency clarify Church goals.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:25 pm
by _DrW
Hey Maksutov,

"Eusocial hive of Deseret" and "Great Basin Kingdom" are great taglines.

Hope I have a chance to use these in context sometime, and that you don't mind if I do so - especially "Eusocial hive of Deseret". I love it, even if it does require a broad and loose definition of the term.
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