"The Clash of Differing Opinions"
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"The Clash of Differing Opinions"
Reading just now in the debates over polygamy, I learned that people can pretty much be pigeon-holed by their category: apologists are deceptive, believers are obtuse, and critics speak for Satan. Ultimately, I'm just left grateful, realizing that there must be some miserable specimens of humanity who, having belonged to each of these categories, combine all their bad traits. Phew!
...
Having friends on all "sides" of such debates, I am disheartened when I see these friends assuming the worst of one another, vilifying each other, and seemingly even hating each other. This doesn't always happen, and sometimes the ill feeling goes only in one direction, or more from one side to the other. But it happens. A lot. And once it breaks out, it's highly contagious.
Watching it pains me. For whatever reason, I find it easy to assume the best of just about everyone involved in these discussions--to think that they're sincere, good-hearted, and pursuing truth. Maybe it's partly just that having a diverse range of serial selves creates empathy for a correspondingly diverse range of others. :-P In my life journey so far, I may well have been, at one time or another, at a similar point in how I viewed Joseph Smith and Mormonism to where each of you are.
I'm also bothered for very practical reasons when people in discussions on Mormon history mock and dismiss those with differing views, particularly other faith perspectives. It bothers me because, in my experience, engaging a wide range of perspectives is essential to the process of getting at truth. Science, for instance, doesn't work by having a bunch of intellectual clones go and think all the same thoughts and act within the same parameters. Nor does scholarship in general. To the contrary! Scholarship works by having people from a wide range of presuppositions, motivations, methodologies, abilities, and past experiences talk to one another within a framework of shared conventions of rational and civil discourse, documentation, peer review, and so on.
If any of you--whatever your religious or philosophical beliefs--thinks that the truth about Mormon history has been brought to light exclusively when the subject was approached from your particular faith perspective or ideological angle, or that approaching it always and only from that angle will generate the fullest and most accurate picture, I'm sorry but you're up in the night. The facts demonstrate exactly the opposite.
From the beginning, much of what we've known about Joseph Smith's polygamy has come to us via both nonbelieving and believing sources. Among the various people behind the creation of important historical records on the subject are John C. Bennett, Joseph Smith III, Joseph F. Smith, Wilhelm Wyl, and Andrew Jenson--a motley assortment if ever there was one. And among those who've helped excavate these sources and fit them together are Fawn Brodie, Stanley Ivins, Danel Bachman, Lawrence Foster, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Todd Compton, Mike Quinn, Brian Hales, and me (during both my ex-Mormon atheist and active Latter-day Saint days). Do you see a common thread of religious belief among these scholars? Or, contrariwise, am I blind? Do you see this too?These scholars run the entire gamut of faith, non-faith, and anti-faith in Mormonism The idea that we gain accurate information about the Mormon past principally or overwhelmingly from those who share our own religious views is flatly false, no matter what those views are.
Scholarship on Mormon history is, like the sciences and scholarship more broadly, a conversation that becomes more interesting and productive the more diverse voices are added to it. So, perhaps rather than trying to drown out voices divergent from our own, we could recognize that even when they disagree with us on fundamentals of worldview and approach--or, often, because they disagree with us on such fundamentals--they, with us, contribute to an exponentially richer and fuller exploration of the possibilities than any of us could ever hope to create by talking just with our ideological in-group.
It would be a simple illusion to think that any one individual or ideological clique is going to piece together The Big Picture of the past. The process of putting diverse ideas and interpretations into conflict and thereby subjecting them to critique, reformulation, hybridization, and testing against the sources, just is how, in the long run, we flesh out the past.
This crucial role of diverse opinions, and of conflict between, them in the search for truth is attested not only in the philosophy and practice of science and academic scholarship, it is also an insight conveyed within various religions and wisdom traditions.
Jewish proverb has it that, "If two of us agree, one of us is unnecessary." And the Talmud and Mishnah are textual embodiments of that principle, running arguments between scholars across centuries.
Joseph Smith once preached "setting forth the evils that existed, and that would exist, by reason of hasty judgment, or decisions upon any subject given by any people...judging before they had heard both sides of a question."
And, my favorite: 'Abdu'l-Bahá, one of the Founding Figures of the Bahá'í faith, taught, "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions."
We are all, ultimately, contributing to the same larger process of sorting out the truth. Realizing this, can't we maybe be a little kinder to those frustratingly and intransigently different but absolutely essential critics and interlocutors on the "other" side? Then the time, energy, and emotion now invested in mean-spirited meta-discussion could be invested, instead, in figuring stuff out. Among the first new things we might discover in this approach would be good will, mutual respect, and a wider circle of friends. And with more substantive discussion and fuller engagement with each other's ideas, the process of winnowing out the truth could be faster, finer, and more effective.
How would it be?
Don
...
Having friends on all "sides" of such debates, I am disheartened when I see these friends assuming the worst of one another, vilifying each other, and seemingly even hating each other. This doesn't always happen, and sometimes the ill feeling goes only in one direction, or more from one side to the other. But it happens. A lot. And once it breaks out, it's highly contagious.
Watching it pains me. For whatever reason, I find it easy to assume the best of just about everyone involved in these discussions--to think that they're sincere, good-hearted, and pursuing truth. Maybe it's partly just that having a diverse range of serial selves creates empathy for a correspondingly diverse range of others. :-P In my life journey so far, I may well have been, at one time or another, at a similar point in how I viewed Joseph Smith and Mormonism to where each of you are.
I'm also bothered for very practical reasons when people in discussions on Mormon history mock and dismiss those with differing views, particularly other faith perspectives. It bothers me because, in my experience, engaging a wide range of perspectives is essential to the process of getting at truth. Science, for instance, doesn't work by having a bunch of intellectual clones go and think all the same thoughts and act within the same parameters. Nor does scholarship in general. To the contrary! Scholarship works by having people from a wide range of presuppositions, motivations, methodologies, abilities, and past experiences talk to one another within a framework of shared conventions of rational and civil discourse, documentation, peer review, and so on.
If any of you--whatever your religious or philosophical beliefs--thinks that the truth about Mormon history has been brought to light exclusively when the subject was approached from your particular faith perspective or ideological angle, or that approaching it always and only from that angle will generate the fullest and most accurate picture, I'm sorry but you're up in the night. The facts demonstrate exactly the opposite.
From the beginning, much of what we've known about Joseph Smith's polygamy has come to us via both nonbelieving and believing sources. Among the various people behind the creation of important historical records on the subject are John C. Bennett, Joseph Smith III, Joseph F. Smith, Wilhelm Wyl, and Andrew Jenson--a motley assortment if ever there was one. And among those who've helped excavate these sources and fit them together are Fawn Brodie, Stanley Ivins, Danel Bachman, Lawrence Foster, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Todd Compton, Mike Quinn, Brian Hales, and me (during both my ex-Mormon atheist and active Latter-day Saint days). Do you see a common thread of religious belief among these scholars? Or, contrariwise, am I blind? Do you see this too?These scholars run the entire gamut of faith, non-faith, and anti-faith in Mormonism The idea that we gain accurate information about the Mormon past principally or overwhelmingly from those who share our own religious views is flatly false, no matter what those views are.
Scholarship on Mormon history is, like the sciences and scholarship more broadly, a conversation that becomes more interesting and productive the more diverse voices are added to it. So, perhaps rather than trying to drown out voices divergent from our own, we could recognize that even when they disagree with us on fundamentals of worldview and approach--or, often, because they disagree with us on such fundamentals--they, with us, contribute to an exponentially richer and fuller exploration of the possibilities than any of us could ever hope to create by talking just with our ideological in-group.
It would be a simple illusion to think that any one individual or ideological clique is going to piece together The Big Picture of the past. The process of putting diverse ideas and interpretations into conflict and thereby subjecting them to critique, reformulation, hybridization, and testing against the sources, just is how, in the long run, we flesh out the past.
This crucial role of diverse opinions, and of conflict between, them in the search for truth is attested not only in the philosophy and practice of science and academic scholarship, it is also an insight conveyed within various religions and wisdom traditions.
Jewish proverb has it that, "If two of us agree, one of us is unnecessary." And the Talmud and Mishnah are textual embodiments of that principle, running arguments between scholars across centuries.
Joseph Smith once preached "setting forth the evils that existed, and that would exist, by reason of hasty judgment, or decisions upon any subject given by any people...judging before they had heard both sides of a question."
And, my favorite: 'Abdu'l-Bahá, one of the Founding Figures of the Bahá'í faith, taught, "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions."
We are all, ultimately, contributing to the same larger process of sorting out the truth. Realizing this, can't we maybe be a little kinder to those frustratingly and intransigently different but absolutely essential critics and interlocutors on the "other" side? Then the time, energy, and emotion now invested in mean-spirited meta-discussion could be invested, instead, in figuring stuff out. Among the first new things we might discover in this approach would be good will, mutual respect, and a wider circle of friends. And with more substantive discussion and fuller engagement with each other's ideas, the process of winnowing out the truth could be faster, finer, and more effective.
How would it be?
Don
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Re: "The Clash of Differing Opinions"
Wouldn't it cut the legs off critic's arguments if apologists would speak nothing but the truth regarding past polygamy happenings?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Re: "The Clash of Differing Opinions"
DonBradley wrote:Reading just now in the debates over polygamy, I learned that people can pretty much be pigeon-holed by their category: apologists are deceptive, believers are obtuse, and critics speak for Satan. Ultimately, I'm just left grateful, realizing that there must be some miserable specimens of humanity who, having belonged to each of these categories, combine all their bad traits. Phew!
...
How would it be?
Don
Don, are you talking about yourself? Don't be so modest - at least some people do not regard you as a "miserable specimen of humanity".
(NOT a serious comment - sorry, I just couldn't resist. I'm not sure whether you ever regarded yourself as an apologist, although I know that others have hung the label around your neck.)
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
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Re: "The Clash of Differing Opinions"
I hear ya, but it is really hard not to get a bit nasty when someone implies that the only way you could hold the opinions that you do is if you were disingenuous, evil, or stupid.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
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Re: "The Clash of Differing Opinions"
I agree with you, but the way the church has handled people like Alan Rock Waterman make me wonder if it is possible. I think it is easier for me to enjoy the church with freedom from the outside rather than be stifled within it.
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Re: "The Clash of Differing Opinions"
Many of us here are former Mormons, having been on both sides of this divide. True, I've only been on the TBM side for one stretch during my life, but only been on the non-believing side for one stretch too. I've not had the perspective of being a believer that once did not, such as Don.
The LDS Church is a devious institution. It lies. It whitewashes its own history, portrays it much differently than the documents and artifacts that its leaders have known about and hidden away in vaults, like the KEP and the stone, for decades and decades. Worse yet, the LDS Church practices its deception on young, naïve children. I know, I was one of its victim children, 'born in the covenant' as the LDS like to say.
BKP knew there was nothing 'sacred' about the fact he never saw Jesus. What a putz.
DHO shoveling that BS about white salamanders. Just years before that, when he was my law professor, I had great admiration for the moral bearings he displayed in his approach to the law. What a sell out for the Corporation once he got on the board.
Truth is not a balance between myths/lies from the LDS Church on the one hand, and those earnestly seeking truth on the other, such as the scientific community. The "truth" does not require one give credence to and balance it with neurotic, fact-void beliefs. Taking all viewpoints into account does not result in 'truth', it only results in an amalgamation of all view points, those that are wrong as well as those that are correct. Pluralism is an under-girder for societal tolerance and utility, it is an essential value for a peaceful society. Pluralism, when applied to finding the truth, waters down what truth was among any of the elements added to the alchemy.
Even among science, there is contest, and out of the blast furnaces of those contests is forged the best steel of truth. Looking to show that another scientist's hypothesis is incorrect. It is through deduction, not all inclusion, that the truth is refined out. The contests in debate, such as in online fora like MDB concerning Mormonism, contribute to the process, no matter how frustrating and testy it becomes at times. If it did not, and all held back for the sake of civility, the nut of truth would not be advanced. It is in some of the most heated debates here, where both sides have dug deep into their arsenals of historical facts, that readers learn more, than by pussy footing around each other's sensibilities all the time.
I respect that academic tradition of research, authoring published papers and presenting them at symposiums where there might be divergent views, but the conversation at the wine and cheese reception later only coming close to actual debate, deflecting off with a laugh and a pat on the back. Through that research new facts are often uncovered. But in the happy bus of diverse views, the singing is nothing but cacophony and kumbaya, no true melody of truth.
Moksha said it well, up thread, when he noted (through rhetorical questioning) that it would "cut the legs off critic's arguments if apologists would speak nothing but the truth regarding past polygamy happenings". I would add, that the LDS Church too needs to speak nothing but the truth, or make no statement about a topic.
The LDS Church is a devious institution. It lies. It whitewashes its own history, portrays it much differently than the documents and artifacts that its leaders have known about and hidden away in vaults, like the KEP and the stone, for decades and decades. Worse yet, the LDS Church practices its deception on young, naïve children. I know, I was one of its victim children, 'born in the covenant' as the LDS like to say.
BKP knew there was nothing 'sacred' about the fact he never saw Jesus. What a putz.
DHO shoveling that BS about white salamanders. Just years before that, when he was my law professor, I had great admiration for the moral bearings he displayed in his approach to the law. What a sell out for the Corporation once he got on the board.
Truth is not a balance between myths/lies from the LDS Church on the one hand, and those earnestly seeking truth on the other, such as the scientific community. The "truth" does not require one give credence to and balance it with neurotic, fact-void beliefs. Taking all viewpoints into account does not result in 'truth', it only results in an amalgamation of all view points, those that are wrong as well as those that are correct. Pluralism is an under-girder for societal tolerance and utility, it is an essential value for a peaceful society. Pluralism, when applied to finding the truth, waters down what truth was among any of the elements added to the alchemy.
Even among science, there is contest, and out of the blast furnaces of those contests is forged the best steel of truth. Looking to show that another scientist's hypothesis is incorrect. It is through deduction, not all inclusion, that the truth is refined out. The contests in debate, such as in online fora like MDB concerning Mormonism, contribute to the process, no matter how frustrating and testy it becomes at times. If it did not, and all held back for the sake of civility, the nut of truth would not be advanced. It is in some of the most heated debates here, where both sides have dug deep into their arsenals of historical facts, that readers learn more, than by pussy footing around each other's sensibilities all the time.
I respect that academic tradition of research, authoring published papers and presenting them at symposiums where there might be divergent views, but the conversation at the wine and cheese reception later only coming close to actual debate, deflecting off with a laugh and a pat on the back. Through that research new facts are often uncovered. But in the happy bus of diverse views, the singing is nothing but cacophony and kumbaya, no true melody of truth.
Moksha said it well, up thread, when he noted (through rhetorical questioning) that it would "cut the legs off critic's arguments if apologists would speak nothing but the truth regarding past polygamy happenings". I would add, that the LDS Church too needs to speak nothing but the truth, or make no statement about a topic.
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Re: "The Clash of Differing Opinions"
Don,
I don't think there will ever be a resolution to the tension between scholarship and revelation.
The dynamic you describe is one that is interested in finding where facts leads, while I think the church is only interested in facts that leads to the defense of its own preset notions of truth.
While I think you and Dr Hales have produced a very impressive body of work on Joseph's involvement with polygamy, there is a distinct difference in how he responds to criticism of Joseph and how you do. Perhaps much of your message was directed at him too?
I wonder Don, if this conversation is all about proper scholarship, if you would be reluctant to publish information that you knew would be damaging to the faith of members, like perhaps evidence that Joseph Smith fathered children from women other than Emma?
In the end, it is tough to have cordial disagreements where one side, or both, think their eternal salvation depends on defending what they believe.
I don't think there will ever be a resolution to the tension between scholarship and revelation.
The dynamic you describe is one that is interested in finding where facts leads, while I think the church is only interested in facts that leads to the defense of its own preset notions of truth.
While I think you and Dr Hales have produced a very impressive body of work on Joseph's involvement with polygamy, there is a distinct difference in how he responds to criticism of Joseph and how you do. Perhaps much of your message was directed at him too?
I wonder Don, if this conversation is all about proper scholarship, if you would be reluctant to publish information that you knew would be damaging to the faith of members, like perhaps evidence that Joseph Smith fathered children from women other than Emma?
In the end, it is tough to have cordial disagreements where one side, or both, think their eternal salvation depends on defending what they believe.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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Re: "The Clash of Differing Opinions"
The fact is that I read everything that Brian Hales wrote about polygamy. I learned a ton of stuff but I still feel that the polygamy revelation was something that Joseph Smith used to take advantage of women (he didn't even follow the specific rules it lays out, after all). I honestly feel that after reading and understanding as much on the subject as I possibly could. So for Hales to pop in yesterday and accuse (I assume) me and other people of just believing caricatures of Joseph was puzzling. I am disturbed by the facts. I am disturbed by the very existence of a system where God gives dozens of women to special men. I feel it very strongly. Why does that make me a bad person? I wish Hales would answer that question.
And honestly I felt sick when I read Hales' defenses of dishonesty in his books. I did not find them convincing. I don't feel that a just and loving God would purposely put his people in a position where they have to be less than honest about what they are doing to serve God. You can call that the spirit testifying to me that it is false or you can call it my own moral compass but it is all very real to me. I find it very odd that this makes some believers almost pathologically defensive. It just seems like it should be so easy to say, "I don't agree with you but I see how you can believe what you do and I see how you are a moral person."
Don, thank you for all of the research you put into those books. I am truly grateful. I learned a ton, but I still don't believe that the creator of the universe wanted Joseph to have dozens of wives. I also don't think that the God of the Bible is a moral being, so there is probably no hope for me to ever reconcile with Mormonism but I still go every week with my wife.
And honestly I felt sick when I read Hales' defenses of dishonesty in his books. I did not find them convincing. I don't feel that a just and loving God would purposely put his people in a position where they have to be less than honest about what they are doing to serve God. You can call that the spirit testifying to me that it is false or you can call it my own moral compass but it is all very real to me. I find it very odd that this makes some believers almost pathologically defensive. It just seems like it should be so easy to say, "I don't agree with you but I see how you can believe what you do and I see how you are a moral person."
Don, thank you for all of the research you put into those books. I am truly grateful. I learned a ton, but I still don't believe that the creator of the universe wanted Joseph to have dozens of wives. I also don't think that the God of the Bible is a moral being, so there is probably no hope for me to ever reconcile with Mormonism but I still go every week with my wife.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/
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Re: "The Clash of Differing Opinions"
For me, it's not a question of saying that one "side" has all the truth. As you note, we have what we have from different sources, and most of us weigh the evidence on its strengths and weaknesses, regardless of who said or wrote it. I've read Brian's stuff, and I have learned a great deal from him (and you, by extension), but as others have said, I don't find his defenses of Joseph Smith particularly compelling. I don't think that means I'm hard-hearted or refuse to see anything that contradicts my stubborn opinions. I just don't find Brian's conclusions well-founded.
As a young man, I decided that there were two caricatures of Joseph Smith--the charlatan with a huge libido and no conscience, and the Saintly prophet who never did anything remotely suspect--and I understood even then that the "real" Joseph Smith was somewhere in the middle. You told me yourself that there are episodes of Joseph Smith's life that strike you as absolutely genuine and pious, and others that are self-serving and manipulative. I agreed with you then, as I do now.
Will we ever get to the "real" Joseph Smith? Of course not. He's dead, and we have only a finite amount of information about him from his friends and enemies. So, like always, we sift through the evidence and come to our own conclusions. That I don't feel the way Brian feels doesn't mean I demonize or disrespect him. We just disagree. That's all.
As a young man, I decided that there were two caricatures of Joseph Smith--the charlatan with a huge libido and no conscience, and the Saintly prophet who never did anything remotely suspect--and I understood even then that the "real" Joseph Smith was somewhere in the middle. You told me yourself that there are episodes of Joseph Smith's life that strike you as absolutely genuine and pious, and others that are self-serving and manipulative. I agreed with you then, as I do now.
Will we ever get to the "real" Joseph Smith? Of course not. He's dead, and we have only a finite amount of information about him from his friends and enemies. So, like always, we sift through the evidence and come to our own conclusions. That I don't feel the way Brian feels doesn't mean I demonize or disrespect him. We just disagree. That's all.
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Re: "The Clash of Differing Opinions"
Well, I suppose when apologists use words like 'intransigent' and 'lazy' regarding the disaffected bad feelings are bound to arise... Especially when it's shown the former were right all along.
Additionally, it doesn't help when real scholars and historians are doing the footwork for an organization that doesn't really want its history brought to light are attacked inside and out of the Church for being essentially 5th columnists.
Also, it really really doesn't help the conversation along when those who are willing to publish their research or voice their opinion on a matter face real-world repercussions from the Church, their Mormon employers, friends, and family. Thankfully the scholars and historians who were brave enough to face those consequences spurred the Church to finally admit the truth about Joseph Smith and Church history. Without them, facing a very real backlash by the rabidly faithful, we would be stuck in a never ending cycle of discovery, denial, and accusations.
V/R
Doc
Additionally, it doesn't help when real scholars and historians are doing the footwork for an organization that doesn't really want its history brought to light are attacked inside and out of the Church for being essentially 5th columnists.
Also, it really really doesn't help the conversation along when those who are willing to publish their research or voice their opinion on a matter face real-world repercussions from the Church, their Mormon employers, friends, and family. Thankfully the scholars and historians who were brave enough to face those consequences spurred the Church to finally admit the truth about Joseph Smith and Church history. Without them, facing a very real backlash by the rabidly faithful, we would be stuck in a never ending cycle of discovery, denial, and accusations.
V/R
Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.