DiscussMormonism.com

And women not allowed in the circle.

Runtu wrote:

Maksutov wrote:You should probably ask the blogger that question yourself. I'm sure each individual has their own experience.

In my instance there was little fear, much weariness, and a good amount of outrage. The cognitive dissonance was stressful, but the recognition of organized, sustained institutional dishonesty pissed me off.

I was mostly upset with myself for having rationalized so much for so long.

I agree with both Maksutov and Runtu.

Hi brotherjake,

brotherjake wrote:I'm also curious. Are you saying that the author doesn't actually perceive fear in Mormonism?

No.
Whether that perception is reflective of general reality, however, is in the eye of the beholder.

brotherjake wrote:Or that the things the author lists as sources of fear aren't actually things to be afraid of since you don't perceive them as such?

I don't perceive them as much.
Yet I can see how a few might. I would imagine even that few might move beyond such fears some day.
But to suggest fear of such things is anywhere near a common things runs counter to everything I've witnessed, whether online, in church meetings, or in face-to-face discussions with others.

Chap wrote:One thing that is conspicuously absent from this board is posts from people who began to have intellectual and historical problems with Mormonism telling us how ready family and friends were to discuss such issues with them, and with what easy confidence the (still) Mormon participants in the subsequent discussions comported themselves.

Few people of any faith are equipped to handle such things. Part of this is because questions and doubts are sometimes initially seen as shameful and even dangerously contagious, like leprosy. Part of this is because relatively few people can relate to ever pushing their way through such doubts and coming out the other side. And part of this is because some people don't think things through - they simply believe.

Chap wrote:On the other hand, there are examples in plenty along the lines of

"My family have made it plain I am only welcome in their house if I say nothing about my problems.

"My bishop told me that if I mentioned any of my problems to anybody else in the ward I would be exed."

"If I say anything about my reasons for leaving the church, my mother just bears her testimony, bursts into tears and leaves the room."

That sounds a bit as if the people referred to are afraid in some way, does it not?

Yes.

Chap wrote:Of course, from time to time we do get posters who say of themselves "What, me afraid of looking criticisms of the church in the face? What a weird idea! I don't know any Mormons who feel like that.

Have I said I don't know any who feel like that? I experienced some of the kind of backlash you've described back when I wrestled with questions and doubts, even though I kept the vast bulk of my concerns to myself. And that was from asking about one thing, in private, to one person, who was extremely close to me. I learned from that experience to work through such things without relying on anyone else but God.

Chap wrote:We are always ready to discuss criticisms, because our answers to them are so good".

As Peter said 2000 years ago, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"
God can help anyone work through doubts, questions, or concerns.
An apologist, or an online comment, or a friend can help to some degree, but the best help comes from working it out with God. That's the whole purpose of this ball of wax we're living on, and the core purpose for the challenges we go through from year to year - to draw us closer to him.

hagoth7 wrote:

Chap wrote:One thing that is conspicuously absent from this board is posts from people who began to have intellectual and historical problems with Mormonism telling us how ready family and friends were to discuss such issues with them, and with what easy confidence the (still) Mormon participants in the subsequent discussions comported themselves.

Few people of any faith are equipped to handle such things. Part of this is because questions and doubts are sometimes initially seen as shameful and even dangerously contagious, like leprosy. Part of this is because relatively few people can relate to ever pushing their way through such doubts and coming out the other side. And part of this is because some people don't think things through - they simply believe.

Chap wrote:On the other hand, there are examples in plenty along the lines of

"My family have made it plain I am only welcome in their house if I say nothing about my problems.

"My bishop told me that if I mentioned any of my problems to anybody else in the ward I would be exed."

"If I say anything about my reasons for leaving the church, my mother just bears her testimony, bursts into tears and leaves the room."

That sounds a bit as if the people referred to are afraid in some way, does it not?

Yes.

Chap wrote:Of course, from time to time we do get posters who say of themselves "What, me afraid of looking criticisms of the church in the face? What a weird idea! I don't know any Mormons who feel like that.

Have I said I don't know any who feel like that? I experienced some of the kind of backlash you've described back when I wrestled with questions and doubts, even though I kept the vast bulk of my concerns to myself. And that was from asking about one thing, in private, to one person, who was extremely close to me. I learned from that experience to work through such things without relying on anyone else but God.

Chap wrote:We are always ready to discuss criticisms, because our answers to them are so good".

As Peter said 2000 years ago, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"
God can help anyone work through doubts, questions, or concerns.
An apologist, or an online comment, or a friend can help to some degree, but the best help comes from working it out with God. That's the whole purpose of this ball of wax we're living on, and the core purpose for the challenges we go through from year to year - to draw us closer to him.

So your long dead friend Peter recommends we here and now just STFU and keep on marching down the path of extinction. Yeah, let's keep drawing closer to a singular sect's demonstrably delusional concept of ancient dead people and their gods. We don't have anything better or more reasonable to do in the 21st century in a world of 7 billion people and thousands of gods, exploding technology, threat of nuclear war, environmental crises, etc. Yeah, and the inspiration thing has always worked so well in the past. Look at the idiots blowing up temples in Syria. True believers all. They're just bringing us closer to Allah. What's the problem?

honorentheos wrote:Building a wall and living on the inside of it is not a sign of indifference or fearlessness.

This is where I would peg most Mormons. They're pretty insular and don't want to hear what they already know: That Mormonism is batshit crazy.

Of course, I also think most people fall within this mindset to one degree or another. It's always fun to watch an evangelical show up to this board, attack Mormonism, and then get indignant when their faith is treated similarly.

V/R
Doc

hagoth7 wrote: But to suggest fear of such things is anywhere near a common things runs counter to everything I've witnessed, whether online, in church meetings, or in face-to-face discussions with others.

Doesn't your own experience contradict this?

I experienced some of the kind of backlash you've described back when I wrestled with questions and doubts, even though I kept the vast bulk of my concerns to myself. And that was from asking about one thing, in private, to one person, who was extremely close to me. I learned from that experience to work through such things without relying on anyone else but God.

Unless I'm misreading this, the only person you ever expressed your private doubts to reacted fearfully. I'd bet that if you'd expressed your doubts to 10 believing friends, 8 of them would have reacted similarly. That indicates a pervasive culture of fear surrounding questions and doubts. Sure, it doesn't manifest itself until a doubt is presented, but that's like pretty much any other fear--I'm afraid of tigers, but nobody would really know that until they saw me confront one.

Maksutov wrote:

honorentheos wrote:Building a wall and living on the inside of it is not a sign of indifference or fearlessness.

"They stand facing the rest of the world like a herd of rather amiable musk oxen, horns out, in a protective ring, watchful but not belligerent - full of confidence but ready to reasonable, and wanting to be liked." --Wallace Stegner

Still true?

Interesting and different nuance. It certainly describes many Mormons in regards to their position to the outside world broadly I think. Meaning most Mormons seem to look upon the secular world with conflicting emotions, wanting both acceptance and the right to be who they are without ridicule. That's my observation.

But I don't think most Mormons who are living like KevinSim's wife in relation to the historical issues are facing outward to them. There is a buffer that they've placed between themselves and these issues that they imagine partisions them and allows them to live within the buffer as if nothing was going on outside the wall. When in reality...

honorentheos wrote:

Maksutov wrote:
"They stand facing the rest of the world like a herd of rather amiable musk oxen, horns out, in a protective ring, watchful but not belligerent - full of confidence but ready to reasonable, and wanting to be liked." --Wallace Stegner

Still true?

Interesting and different nuance. It certainly describes many Mormons in regards to their position to the outside world broadly I think. Meaning most Mormons seem to look upon the secular world with conflicting emotions, wanting both acceptance and the right to be who they are without ridicule. That's my observation.

But I don't think most Mormons who are living like KevinSim's wife in relation to the historical issues are facing outward to them. There is a buffer that they've placed between themselves and these issues that they imagine partisions them and allows them to live within the buffer as if nothing was going on outside the wall. When in reality...

What Stegner's image doesn't include is the very un-musk-ox-like impulse and practice of trying to turn other creatures into musk oxes or behaving like musk oxes. Some other species don't convert well.

Maksutov wrote:
What Stegner's image doesn't include is the very un-musk-ox-like impulse and practice of trying to turn other creatures into musk oxen or behaving like musk oxen. Some other species don't convert well. (Selected s->n conversions mine.)

The analogy continues to work well, underscoring yet another absurdity of Mormon (TBM) behavior and culture.