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Re: What is so special spiritually about the Book of Mormon?
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:19 pm
by _Tobin
DarkHelmet wrote:Tobin wrote:And just for your reference, the Book of Mormon also contains sermons, prophecies, prayers, proverbs, and references some historical events the same as the Bible. That was unimportant to the point I was making which you failed to comprehend.
The point is, the Bible really is ancient. If we assume every story in the Bible is fictional, then it's a collection of ancient stories thousands of years old from various authors spanning about 1000 years. Assuming it's fictional, we can glean a lot about these ancient cultures from the Bible the same way humans 2000 years from now can learn about 20th and 21st Century america by studying our films. That is why there are secular Bible study courses in colleges across the country. The Book of Mormon is a single book written over the span of a few months in the late 1820s. We can learn a lot about Joseph Smith by reading the Book of Mormon, but we learn nothing about ancient Native Americans. The Book of Mormon is not taken seriously by secular scholars.
So when someone makes up a story makes it worthy of serious consideration by secular scholars? Well, that is easy to solve. We'll just wait a thousand years and then the Book of Mormon will be taken seriously by secular scholars too.
Re: What is so special spiritually about the Book of Mormon?
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:31 pm
by _DarkHelmet
Tobin wrote:So when someone makes up a story makes it worthy of serious consideration by secular scholars? Well, that is easy to solve. We'll just wait a thousand years and then the Book of Mormon will be taken seriously by secular scholars too.
It will always be taken seriously as a way to study 19th century fringe American religious movements. I just don't see it being of any value outside of learning about Joseph Smith and the founding of Mormonism. The Bible has a much richer history. It's like studying Greek Mythology. You don't have to be believe in Zeus to study Greek Mythology.
Re: What is so special spiritually about the Book of Mormon?
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:31 am
by _Gadianton
There is nothing special about the Book of Mormon from my experience. Sure: for members, who grew up with the Book of Mormon and spoon-fed with the stories, it's like mom's apple pie being the best in the world. It has a certain familiarity to it. The stories do anyway. Otherwise, how many folks did you know who took the challenge and literally forced themselves to read it every day and then felt like, boy, what a burden was lifted at the end of the year when they could say they finally got through it cover to cover? For folks outside the Church? I'm sorry but I just haven't seen the examples from How Rare a Possession. As a TBM that was one of my favorite movies, but how many times did I see it happen? Can't say even once.
Some examples:
A young Catholic lady from my youth who all the Mormon guys her age hit on, and I totally understand why as she really had it together, ended up joining the Church. She was at our house one day and recounted her conversion story and it all came down to "how she felt". But one joke she made was about a Book of Mormon recently given to her and "thanks, I'll add it to my collection." Laughs all around. What she was drawn to wasn't the Book of Mormon.
On my mission, a uber-bubbly sister in my district wanted advice because as very bright, studious, organized, and rule-obeying, she'd already plowed through the book something like 17 times. What was the point? What was she supposed to do? What was she supposed to be getting out of it? She held up her mark-up Book of Mormon up to me like it was a dirty sock.
On my mission I never remember any investigator being excited about the Book of Mormon. The ones who had us back several times liked us, the missionaries, that's for sure. And they also liked certain doctrines. It took over two thousand years for someone to update the fires of Ahura Mazda with something more friendly to humanity, and so Joseph Smith did a good job with the three degrees of glory and limited hell.
I've already mentioned at BYU, two convert ministers played down the Book of Mormon. They already knew about Christ from the Bible. They liked the non-creedal personal God. All this revised doctrine many are drawn to the Book of Mormon doesn't even teach.
Here's an odd one from my mission. I never met the guy, but there was this former BP I accidently tracted out and his wife had us in. She explained the situation, her husband was a hard-nosed Greek Orthodox convert, a major convert, who had a supernatural conversion experience. He was a pillar to the Saints for ten years until a business deal with other mo's went south and he apostatized. She went along with it either way, it seemed. He took the challenge to pray about the Book of Mormon to the nth degree, and fasted for days and had it out with God in hours and hours of physically taxing prayer when he had a miraculous experience the wife didn't feel she should get into. So doesn't this count?
Not so sure. Not because he left the Church later, but the way she described it was like, here's this odd book and a profound claim, and is it true? It didn't seem he was drawn to the fantastic stories and moral teachings or doctrines, but the supernatural underpinnings, and like the Nehor faced with the pyramids or others faced with two sticks crossing at a pipe, he either had to explain it away or get the confirmation that this thing was a miracle.
So I suppose to say the Book of Mormon is special spiritually, we need some stories of converts who were converted largely because of the Book of Mormon, but not merely because they read the 3 verses the missionaries marked and got the burning or read it over and over even and had a miraculous experience, but because they were captivated by the teachings or stories for one reason or another, and fell in love with its wisdom. The "confirmation" from prayer etc. is optional but not necessary, and alone is not sufficient.
Re: What is so special spiritually about the Book of Mormon?
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:11 am
by _grindael
Trollbin wrote:
Please try to compare the underlined, bolded parts grindael! As an exercise, try reading it over and over to yourself quietly and see if you comprehend it.
"AS WELL AS"... This means that there is more than what you quoted genius, and that you OVERSIMPLIFIED. This is DISAGREEMENT. If he had agreed with you, he would have just wrote, "I agree". He didn't. I'm not the one with comprehension problems, dumbass.
Re: What is so special spiritually about the Book of Mormon?
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:41 am
by _huckelberry
Before I make my comment about the Book of Mormon I should make the observation that I have not read the book in decades. My impression is one from a distance. I might add I read it before the church was pushing people to read it over and over again. I was not aware of anybody doing that.
But I read it and my impression is that the book puts more emphasis on individual moral choice and individual differences in character than you find in the Bible. That makes it a friendlier book is some ways , no predestination, less sense of sharing a communal condemnation.There are some ways it keeps the 19th century threat of the fires of hell barking at your heals however.
I think there must be some people who find spiritual inspiration in the more individual emphasis in the Book of Mormon. Perhaps somebody who likes the book could clarify.
The Book of Mormon lacks the problematic Bible theme of destroying the guilty previous inhabitants of the land.
In fact in the Book of Mormon the friction with natives is not much of a theme at all.
Re: What is so special spiritually about the Book of Mormon?
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:49 am
by _Jersey Girl
kairos wrote:So in that context I read the Book of Mormon which only seemed spiritually projecting when the words of Paul or Matthew were taken from the Bible and place in the Book of Mormon. Outside of that I found the Book of Mormon a discombobulated mess. And spiritually there was nothing there for me.
So for anyone with Bible experience before encountering the Book of Mormon did your experience mirror mine or was there meat you found in it.
K
Nevermo here. I'm sorry that I haven't answered your question. I tried to read the Book of Mormon for the first time in my twenties and long before I ever began investigating Mormonism. My first impression was that it was a rambling and poorly plagiarized version of the Bible. Later, I did use a study guide to read through it and my opinion has remained the same.
So no spiritual experience for me.
Re: What is so special spiritually about the Book of Mormon?
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:03 am
by _Dr. Shades
kairos wrote:As a nevermo with TBM Dear Wife I have tried to read the Book of Mormon spiritual nature
And projection to the reader. This was done in the context of my own born again road to Damascus experience which totally changed my life. A result of that experience was an intense desire to read the Bible as a way to listen to God 's word and act on it in my own life.
So in that context I read the Book of Mormon which only seemed spiritually projecting when the words of Paul or Matthew were taken from the Bible and place in the Book of Mormon. Outside of that I found the Book of Mormon a discombobulated mess. And spiritually there was nothing there for me.
So for anyone with Bible experience before encountering the Book of Mormon did your experience mirror mine or was there meat you found in it.
I can see a non Bible reader encountering words from the Bible having a spiritual experience.
What am I missing?
K
[MODERATOR NOTE: Kairos, please do not press the "Enter" key after every period. Please simply press the spacebar twice instead.
If you wish to create a new paragraph, simply press the "Enter" key twice. In other words, you aren't allowed to press the "Enter" key once. It must be exactly 0 times or 2 times. Those are your only two options.
Now go thou and sin no more.]
Re: What is so special spiritually about the Book of Mormon?
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:20 am
by _Ceeboo
Dr. Shades wrote:kairos wrote:As a nevermo with TBM Dear Wife I have tried to read the Book of Mormon spiritual nature
And projection to the reader. This was done in the context of my own born again road to Damascus experience which totally changed my life. A result of that experience was an intense desire to read the Bible as a way to listen to God 's word and act on it in my own life.
So in that context I read the Book of Mormon which only seemed spiritually projecting when the words of Paul or Matthew were taken from the Bible and place in the Book of Mormon. Outside of that I found the Book of Mormon a discombobulated mess. And spiritually there was nothing there for me.
So for anyone with Bible experience before encountering the Book of Mormon did your experience mirror mine or was there meat you found in it.
I can see a non Bible reader encountering words from the Bible having a spiritual experience.
What am I missing?
K
[MODERATOR NOTE: Kairos, please do not press the "Enter" key after every period. Please simply press the spacebar twice instead.
If you wish to create a new paragraph, simply press the "Enter" key twice. In other words, you aren't allowed to press the "Enter" key once. It must be exactly 0 times or 2 times. Those are your only two options.
Now go thou and sin no more.]
Peace,
Ceeboo