Problems facing New Mormonism

[_Sanctorian]

Sanctorian,

I think they want more than that. It's one thing to ditch a foundational truth claim, it's another thing to ditch the principle of foundational truth claims. This self-appointed class of intellectual elites wants to convince the members there is no such thing as truth.

#nowthatsthetruth

[_Quasimodo]

The biggest problem New Mormonism faces is Old Mormonism. They have 80,000 missionaries out there right now trying to sell expensive club memberships to Old Mormonism. If Old Mormonism goes away, what do they have left?

I think the point of New Mormonism is to deemphasize the recently obvious problems with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Without the Book of Mormon, the LDS church is just another generic, bland protestent sect. With the Book of Mormon, the LDS Church is obviously a religion based on a fantasy. It's now a no win situation.

[_sock puppet]

The biggest problem New Mormonism faces is Old Mormonism. They have 80,000 missionaries out there right now trying to sell expensive club memberships to Old Mormonism. If Old Mormonism goes away, what do they have left?

I think the point of New Mormonism is to deemphasize the recently obvious problems with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Without the Book of Mormon, the LDS church is just another generic, bland protestent sect. With the Book of Mormon, the LDS Church is obviously a religion based on a fantasy. It's now a no win situation.

But hey, JSJr's gambit has run 185 years now.

[_suniluni2]

I don't see the priesthood ban as a foundational truth claim either, but I see it as impacting those truth claims. Those claims include that Mormon god's will is revealed through the 'prophet'. Some of those prophets have declared that the priesthood ban was a "direct commandment of the Lord", part of the church's doctrines. If that's not still so, then what's left of the shredded and tattered foundational truth claim that the president of the church is, particularly when declaring something to be a direct commandment from the Lord, god's mouthpiece? That's a key foundational truth claim, and the current LDS position with respect to the black ban undercuts that foundational truth claim of modern revelation and prophecy, and that when declaring what the Lord wants/says, you can trust that.

Also that the Lord will not allow the prophet to lead the church astray. I thought that was a foundational truth claim at some point in time. I'm not sure anymore. Just like I'm not sure about whether the church taught that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. I swear I was taught that all my life, but somehow other Mormons tell me otherwise.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Sanctorian,

I think they want more than that. It's one thing to ditch a foundational truth claim, it's another thing to ditch the principle of foundational truth claims. This self-appointed class of intellectual elites wants to convince the members there is no such thing as truth.

And this is the conundrum, because the Church posits itself and its doctrines as true in an objective manner. It is the only vehicle in which a human being can transcend his nature, and become like unto a god! This requires objectivity, not subjectivity.

And yet, since day one the Church, in practically every facet, has been in a constant state of flux. The "restoration of the fullness of the gospel" has been anything but that. Not only has the Church abandoned various key tenets of its ideology, but it has also changed the very nature of its exaltation-rites used in the temple! If that's subject then everything about the Church is subjective, and that calls into question its existential purpose. What is the discernible advantage of being a Mormon when being a Mormon is subjective down to the individual level? A social group? A built-in community? Connections? crap man, that's no better than belonging to Scientology.

- Doc

[_maklelan]

I'm having a hard time coming up with or pinning down the Church's "foundational" claims. It seems like the Church has been in a slow motion metamorphosis regarding its doctrines and practices.

- Doc

All churches are always in a slow motion metamorphosis regarding doctrine and practices. Ideology is never static.

[_maklelan]

The "foundational truth claims" are a moving target.

The same is true of all religious belief. It's an inevitability. It's a neverending negotiation between the past and the present.

One foundation truth claim is that blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence.

Show me that truth claim during the foundation of the LDS Church.

But people don't really believe that's a foundational truth claim anymore. How about polygamy? How about that a prophet actually has to actually be a prophet?

The hard part would be to convince a Mormon that foundational truth claims are a moving target and to be OK with that.

Depends on the Mormon.

[_maklelan]

Over the last few days, Mak has suggested a grassroots effort by Mormon intellectuals concerned with the church's future as a responsible social institute to adopt/influence a new version of Mormonism.

I wouldn't call it a "new version of Mormonism."

In this version, the church would move away from its foundational truth claims.

That's not quite what I said. If I recall, the conversation was about creating more social responsibility.

Aside from some issues already highlighted, namely not having the support of leadership, no way to succinctly describe it, how do you garner support without gaining a following and risking apostasy, and being a form of Mormonism not recognizable, what other issues does this new Mormonism face?

One of the biggest problems I see is how do you get anyone to participate? If you move away from the foundational fundamental truth claims, why would anyone participate in Mormomisn? The motivating factor in Mormonism is fear/reward.

This is reductive and rhetorical. You don't know what the motivating factor for Mormons is, you only know how it serves you to frame your own selective memories of how you felt motivated.

If you move away from those teachings as Mak suggests,

Which teachings, precisely, did I suggest we move away from?

how do you get someone to donate their time as a volunteer bishop or what will motivate anyone to consistently give 10% of their income? If there is no fear of penalty or no reward for obedience, why would anyone participate in any meaningful manner?

I know people are motivated to do good, but are they really motivated to volunteer 20-40 hours a week as a stake president if they didn't think there was some penalty/reward tied to that service? Let's just say there's a reason most churches have paid clergy.

So what say ye. What other issues do you see in a new Mormonism that abandons its foundational truth claims?

[_maklelan]

But as a target, the 'foundational truth claims', moves so slowly that the run-of-the-mill Mormon does not realize it. Sort of like the frog not noticing the slowly heating water that kills the frog before reaching boiling temperature.

It evidently moves fast enough, though, that several of you who claim to have more clear and accurate insight into the LDS Church than I do have expressed sudden and unexpected shock at this unknown version of Mormonism that came them out of nowhere and somehow spread all across the Church.

[_RockSlider]

What new Mormonism .... oh you mean Mak?

Is he not alone in this new Makmonism?