DiscussMormonism.com

Over the last few days, Mak has suggested a grassroots effort by Mormon intellectuals concerned with the church's future as a responsible social institute to adopt/influence a new version of Mormonism. In this version, the church would move away from its foundational truth claims. Aside from some issues already highlighted, namely not having the support of leadership, no way to succinctly describe it, how do you garner support without gaining a following and risking apostasy, and being a form of Mormonism not recognizable, what other issues does this new Mormonism face?

One of the biggest problems I see is how do you get anyone to participate? If you move away from the foundational fundamental truth claims, why would anyone participate in Mormomisn? The motivating factor in Mormonism is fear/reward. If you move away from those teachings as Mak suggests, how do you get someone to donate their time as a volunteer bishop or what will motivate anyone to consistently give 10% of their income? If there is no fear of penalty or no reward for obedience, why would anyone participate in any meaningful manner?

I know people are motivated to do good, but are they really motivated to volunteer 20-40 hours a week as a stake president if they didn't think there was some penalty/reward tied to that service? Let's just say there's a reason most churches have paid clergy.

So what say ye. What other issues do you see in a new Mormonism that abandons its foundational truth claims?

where did mak mention this grass roots effort, I would like to read that?

I'm having a hard time coming up with or pinning down the Church's "foundational" claims. It seems like the Church has been in a slow motion metamorphosis regarding its doctrines and practices.

- Doc

Markk wrote:where did mak mention this grass roots effort, I would like to read that?

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39409&start=42 starting on page three and continuing on page four. I interpret organic and grassroots as interchangeable.

If you move away from the foundational fundamental truth claims, why would anyone participate in Mormomisn?

The "foundational truth claims" are a moving target. One foundation truth claim is that blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence. But people don't really believe that's a foundational truth claim anymore. How about polygamy? How about that a prophet actually has to actually be a prophet?

The hard part would be to convince a Mormon that foundational truth claims are a moving target and to be OK with that.

Gadianton wrote:

If you move away from the foundational fundamental truth claims, why would anyone participate in Mormomisn?

The "foundational truth claims" are a moving target. One foundation truth claim is that blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence. But people don't really believe that's a foundational truth claim anymore. How about polygamy? How about that a prophet actually has to actually be a prophet?

The hard part would be to convince a Mormon that foundational truth claims are a moving target and to be OK with that.

But as a target, the 'foundational truth claims', moves so slowly that the run-of-the-mill Mormon does not realize it. Sort of like the frog not noticing the slowly heating water that kills the frog before reaching boiling temperature.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I'm having a hard time coming up with or pinning down the Church's "foundational" claims. It seems like the Church has been in a slow motion metamorphosis regarding its doctrines and practices.

- Doc

The only foundational truth claim that has never changed and will never change is "The church is true". They've redefined "the church" multiple times since 1830, but this one doctrine has never changed. It seems like Mak wants the church to move faster than it has in the past.

Gadianton wrote:

If you move away from the foundational fundamental truth claims, why would anyone participate in Mormomisn?

The "foundational truth claims" are a moving target. One foundation truth claim is that blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence. But people don't really believe that's a foundational truth claim anymore. How about polygamy? How about that a prophet actually has to actually be a prophet?

The hard part would be to convince a Mormon that foundational truth claims are a moving target and to be OK with that.

I don't see blacks and the priesthood as a foundational truth claim. I'm suggesting more along the lines of Joseph Smith, prophets talking for God, Book of Mormon authenticity, one true church, afterlife and how you gain your reward as foundational truth claims. But you are right, at one time something along the lines of blacks was probably considered a foundational truth claim and they seem to have moved passed it. Maybe they can successfully move away from the things that make Mormonism unique and still get some sucker to donate his time to a lifeless calling like assistant toilet scrubber.

Sanctorian,

I think they want more than that. It's one thing to ditch a foundational truth claim, it's another thing to ditch the principle of foundational truth claims. This self-appointed class of intellectual elites wants to convince the members there is no such thing as truth.

Gadianton wrote:

If you move away from the foundational fundamental truth claims, why would anyone participate in Mormomisn?

The "foundational truth claims" are a moving target. One foundation truth claim is that blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence. But people don't really believe that's a foundational truth claim anymore. How about polygamy? How about that a prophet actually has to actually be a prophet?

The hard part would be to convince a Mormon that foundational truth claims are a moving target and to be OK with that.

Sanctorian wrote:I don't see blacks and the priesthood as a foundational truth claim. I'm suggesting more along the lines of Joseph Smith, prophets talking for God, Book of Mormon authenticity, one true church, afterlife and how you gain your reward as foundational truth claims. But you are right, at one time something along the lines of blacks was probably considered a foundational truth claim and they seem to have moved passed it. Maybe they can successfully move away from the things that make Mormonism unique and still get some sucker to donate his time to a lifeless calling like assistant toilet scrubber.

I don't see the priesthood ban as a foundational truth claim either, but I see it as impacting those truth claims. Those claims include that Mormon god's will is revealed through the 'prophet'. Some of those prophets have declared that the priesthood ban was a "direct commandment of the Lord", part of the church's doctrines. If that's not still so, then what's left of the shredded and tattered foundational truth claim that the president of the church is, particularly when declaring something to be a direct commandment from the Lord, god's mouthpiece? That's a key foundational truth claim, and the current LDS position with respect to the black ban undercuts that foundational truth claim of modern revelation and prophecy, and that when declaring what the Lord wants/says, you can trust that.