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Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:24 pm**

Imagine, if you will, the very papyrus Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Abraham sitting on a table next to pen, paper, and lamp. No need to worry about any missing pieces or fragments -- the entire collection rests safely on the table wherewith Joseph Smith has used it to translate and produce the 5 chapters of the story accompanied with the 3 Facsimiles to be published in the church periodical, the Times & Seasons.

Joseph Smith's translation method was anything but conventional, it was wholly pseudo in nature compared to that of modern Egyptology and the translation method employed by Egyptologists today.

With that said, which of his presentations are credible translations from the Egyptian to English? Is it easier to believe the alleged translations of the chapters over the Explanations or, vice versa? Didn't it all spew out of the same pot, the brain of Joseph Smith?

1. Chapter 1

2. Facsimile No. 3 Explanation 2

3. Chapter 2

4. Facsimile No. 3 Explanation 4

5. Chapter 3

6. Facsimile No. 3 Explanation 5

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:37 pm**

Shulem wrote:

1. Chapter 1

2. Facsimile No. 3 Explanation 2

3. Chapter 2

4. Facsimile No. 3 Explanation 4

5. Chapter 3

6. Facsimile No. 3 Explanation 5

Items 1-6 listed above are all false translations from the Egyptian papyrus which was in the possession of Joseph Smith. All 5 chapters are spurious stories made up by the mind of Joseph Smith as were the Explanations of the Facsimiles. The chapters and explanations tendered by Joseph Smith were never contained on the ancient papyrus in hieroglyphic writing. Joseph Smith did not take Egyptian and translate it into English. The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are absolute proof that the translations are bogus and that he made the whole thing up. The Book of Abraham in its entirety is NOT contained in the hieroglyphic writings of the Joseph Smith papyri.

The chapters of the Book of Abraham and he Explanations of the Facsimiles are lies.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:38 pm**

tsig wrote:

Have you spoken with God?

You'd be better off to put Tobin the troll on ignore. He's not worth your time and effort.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:13 pm**

JOSEPH SMITH: Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh’s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood, as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven; with the scepter of justice and judgment in his hand.

SHULEM: No, Mr. Smith, you're a completely mistaken. Your interpretation of this Egyptian scene is completely wrong. That's not Abraham sitting on a throne. It's the Egyptian god, Osiris and that is no king standing behind the throne as you suggest. It's Isis, a queen goddess in the Egyptian pantheon. You are trying to mingle your Mormon priesthood with the Egyptian religion and that doesn't work one bit.

JOSEPH SMITH: King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.

SHULEM: Look, Mr Smith, it's obvious you can't read Egyptian and haven't a clue what the writing is above the head of the figure. You're completely wrong about who the person is and about the hieroglyphic writing. There is no king's name contained therein. You are lying to your church and printing false information. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to con your people. From what I can see here, Mr Smith, you are slandering the ancient Egyptian religion and pretending to translate wherein you obviously don't know what you're talking about and are falsely interpreting and translating Egyptian. You need to cease from this immoral activity.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:11 pm**

Tobin wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:With all this new-Mormonism talk we have going on right now, the Book of Abraham must be an annoyance to the new proponents. It's going to be a little difficult to obfuscate.

"King King"

Not really. It may simple be a work of fiction. The Book of Mormon is the same kind of thing. The important question is whether or not Joseph Smith actually spoke with god-like beings or not. If you believe he did, be a Mormon. Otherwise, don't.

This is a 180 from what the LDS church and leaders have taught from Joseph to the present.
The Book of Mormon is true or their Church is false.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:55 pm**

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham wrote:On many particulars, the book of Abraham is consistent with historical knowledge about the ancient world.

A Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 3

1. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.
2. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.
3. Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.
4. Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince.

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham wrote: By the gift and power of God, Joseph received knowledge about the life and teachings of Abraham.

A Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 3

1. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.
2. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.
3. Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.
4. Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince.

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham wrote: As John Whitmer observed, “Joseph the Seer saw these Record[s] and by the revelation of Jesus Christ could translate these records.”

A Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 3

1. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.
2. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.
3. Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.
4. Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:10 pm**

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham wrote: Alternatively, Joseph’s study of the papyri may have led to a revelation about key events and teachings in the life of Abraham, much as he had earlier received a revelation about the life of Moses while studying the Bible. This view assumes a broader definition of the words translator and translation. According to this view, Joseph’s translation was not a literal rendering of the papyri as a conventional translation would be. Rather, the physical artifacts provided an occasion for meditation, reflection, and revelation. They catalyzed a process whereby God gave to Joseph Smith a revelation about the life of Abraham, even if that revelation did not directly correlate to the characters on the papyri.

Notice how the church refuses to take a stand one way or another. It says above, "Joseph’s study of the papyri MAY have led to a revelation". The church is simply looking for a way out by suggesting anything other than the obvious.

The church neglects to quote eyewitness accounts that attest to the fact that Joseph Smith claimed to be making literal renderings and translations. There is nothing in any of the historical accounts regarding Joseph Smith's translations to get him off the hook as the church is here attempting to do. The Mormon church will do anything to lie for the Lord, lie for their prophet, and lie for their leaders.

The church attempts to paint the picture that there is a way out when there is no way out. The "catalyzed a process" is an apologetic excuse used by modern Mormons to try and get their lying prophet off the hook. But it won't work because Joseph Smith and his companions said too much otherwise to allow for a so-called "catalyzed a process" to be the method of translation.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:25 pm**

Shulem,

You've been cast down to hell for too long. The members are moving onward to Nu-Mormonism (short for nuanced I assume).

Here is how you can stop the pain. Place your index finger and thumb of your right hand on you chin .... stroke repeatedly while staring at the facsimile.
Do something similar with left hand
Open up your imagination and dream ...

Now, the facsimile's mean anything you want them to mean, and you will feel good about the whole experience.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:29 pm**

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham wrote: Alternatively, Joseph’s study of the papyri may have led to a revelation about key events and teachings in the life of Abraham, much as he had earlier received a revelation about the life of Moses while studying the Bible. This view assumes a broader definition of the words translator and translation. According to this view, Joseph’s translation was not a literal rendering of the papyri as a conventional translation would be. Rather, the physical artifacts provided an occasion for meditation, reflection, and revelation. They catalyzed a process whereby God gave to Joseph Smith a revelation about the life of Abraham, even if that revelation did not directly correlate to the characters on the papyri.

The church above takes the position that this "MAY" be the case in order to provide a way out for a literal translation claim. But what do eye-witnesses have to say:

Josiah Quincy, Figures of the Past, p. 385; Nauvoo, May 1844

"Some parchments inscribed with hieroglyphics were then offered us. They were preserved under glass and handled with great respect. 'That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful,' said the prophet, 'This is the autograph of Moses, and these lines were written by his brother Aaron. Here we have the earliest account of the Creation, from which Moses composed the First Book of Genesis.' The parchment last referred to showed a rude drawing of a man and woman, and a serpent walking on a pair of legs. I ventured to doubt the propriety of providing the reptile in question with this unusual means of locomotion, 'Why, that’s as plain as pikestaff,' was the rejoinder. 'Before the Fall snakes always went about on legs, just like chickens. They were deprived of them, in punishment of their agency in the ruin of man.' We were further assured that the prophet was the only mortal who could translate these mysterious writings, and that his power was given by direct revelation."

Quincy Whig, Vol. 3, p. 1, October 1840

"He (Joseph Smith) then walked to a secretary, on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames, covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted.

'These ancient records,' said he, throw great light on the subject of Christianity. They have been unrolled and preserved with great labor and care. My time has been hitherto too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There,' said he, pointing to a particular character, 'that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.'

'It is indeed a most interesting autograph,' I replied, 'and doubtless the only one extant. What an ornament it would be to have these ancient manuscripts handsomely set, in appropriate frames, and hung up around the walls of the temple which you are about to erect at this place.'

'Yes', replied the Prophet, 'and the translation hung up with them'."

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:43 pm**

RockSlider wrote:Shulem,

You've been cast down to hell for too long. The members are moving onward to Nu-Mormonism (short for nuanced I assume).

Here is how you can stop the pain. Place your index finger and thumb of your right hand on you chin .... stroke repeatedly while staring at the facsimile.
Do something similar with left hand
Open up your imagination and dream ...

Now, the facsimile's mean anything you want them to mean, and you will feel good about the whole experience.

Yep, Nu-Mormonism is throwing Old-Mormonism under the bus. But that's how Mormonism works. Mormonism has thrown itself under the bus before. Pretty soon it will become so wishy-washy that the church leadership won't be able to hold it together as members become diverse in their beliefs and truth claims become unbelievable.

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First Presidency bears testimony of Facsimile No. 3

Re: First Presidency bears testimony of Facsimile No. 3

Re: First Presidency bears testimony of Facsimile No. 3

Re: First Presidency bears testimony of Facsimile No. 3

Shulem rebukes Joseph Smith's false claims:

Re: First Presidency bears testimony of Facsimile No. 3

Explanations are NOT inspired or true

Re: First Presidency bears testimony of Facsimile No. 3

Re: First Presidency bears testimony of Facsimile No. 3

Re: First Presidency bears testimony of Facsimile No. 3

Re: First Presidency bears testimony of Facsimile No. 3