Stop Saying That We?????ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

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_hagoth7
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _hagoth7 »

honorentheos wrote:Brilliant. Really a great insight into how ingrained the idea becomes that this type of dishonesty isn't just excuseable but desireable or even necessary to get to a place of understanding. From the youth being whispered to at a F&T meeting to the apostles at GC, this really shines a light on how ingrained this is into the culture....

Honorentheos,
As you may be aware, a letter from church leaders was read from the pulpit some time ago (a few years ago I believe) that asked that the whispering of a testimony to children was inappropriate and should not continue.
Kishkumen wrote:I still struggle with this idea of "knowing." Is it really so simple? Can people feel they know something emotionally without knowing it factually? I agree that the fake it 'til you make it approach is bad. So too is the kiddiemony. Frankly, I don't understand testimonies at all. But I do allow for the sense of knowing that comes from spiritual conviction, and I don't think that is dishonest.

As I may have mentioned here before, my father taught me in missionary preparation class long ago that there were three kinds of conversion needed for long-term activity in the church: spiritual conversion, intellectual conversion, and social conversion. He taught that the former is by far the most important of the three, but that it can eventually buckle without the latter two companion conversions.

For what it's worth...
Joseph Smith: "I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/alm ... ang=eng#20
Red pill: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/New Testament/acts/ ... ang=eng#10
Blue pill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
_sock puppet
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _sock puppet »

Sammy Jankins wrote:A reply by Whitney in the comments.

Well, Gary, I really hit a raw nerve, didn’t I?

I recognize that people are legitimately frustrated with my suggestion that “we’ve been lied to” is an oversimplification that maybe we should stop saying. I’m not suggesting that people should just believe the shoddy history that has been produced, I’m only suggesting that the shoddy history may not have been produced with malicious intent to deceive the membership–but rather from a shortsighted preference for a “heritage” approach to history over an academic approach. As a historian yourself, you understand historiographical trends and how easily bad history can be produced, even by people with overall good intentions. History has always been manipulated to serve political ends. I’m not saying we should excuse that, but rather recognize it for what it is and move on—cheering when better history is produced and calling the church out when shoddy history is produced. But it’s a misnomer to say that the “facts speak for themselves.” In most cases, the “facts” of history require interpretation. How we interpret them, what lens we look through, is very much a product of what our interests and priorities are the at present. We assume that what is important to us now must have been equally as important to people fifty, one hundred, two hundred years ago. We will never be “done” with History, because we will always find a new interpretive lens to apply on the past and arrive at different conclusions about it. I’m suggesting that the bulk of church leaders for the past half century believed in the overly-simplified narrative that they promoted, and quickly cast aside anything that challenged that narrative without serious examination. Packer’s statements to CES were not, I argue, the remarks of a man well-versed in the history, but rather of willful ignorance. And that is the mess we are in: the result of a “consensus” narrative, willful ignorance, stubbornness in many cases, fear in some cases, and a bias against history that they felt threatened the spiritual aspects of our heritage. I’m arguing that it serves us very little to stand around pointing our fingers, calling out “LIARS!” We would be better served with a modicum of charity; a recognition that the leaders of the church are products of their generation, upbringing, and surroundings, as much as anyone else; and easing up on the “us vs. them” mentality.

Could I have framed it differently? Or chosen a less “clickbait” title? Sure. Guilty as charged. And I apologize to anyone that I offended through carelessness (ironic, since that’s what my post is about). One of my favorite comments that I think really summarizes why I wrote this is:

I actually think understanding how and why we got here allows us to approach where we’re at as a church body with more grace, learn from it and move forward in ways to prevent this from replaying in future generations. I think it’s far more valuable than simply assigning blame.

Whitney's problem is that the Corporation of the President touts itself as the lord's church, the vehicle at which god's oracles stand at the head, that it dispenses "truth". Don't recall GM, IBM or even Enron having set its own standard every so high. So, it is by the Corporation of the President's own standard that it should be evaluated.

Next problem for Whitney is the Corporation of the President's historical narrative is not merely the product of sloppy history. If that were the case, that narrative would not be just the dreamy, mythical, all positive version of JSJr. That is the result of a selection process, and deliberate effort to leave out (and thus hide) the unsavory facts and the mundane ones that might lead to it. No, this was a carefully, deliberately crafted fairy tale.

Third, Correlation is only about the last 50 years of the 185 year history, and much of the "cleansing" of the narrative has occurred during this time. In these 50 years, too, is when the sensen papyrus was found, the KEP was uncovered despite it being tucked away neatly, historian Arrington being replaced with fantasy writers as church historians, the Hoffman forgery debacle, that the black ban from the priesthood went from being a declared in no uncertain terms as a "direct commandment from the Lord" and "doctrine" to being inexplicable policies of men, and even the brown seer stone revealed. All that has come tumbling out, and had to be covered up or were the cover up steps taken since Thomas S. Monson has been one of the FP/12. The current clowns own this, they've had just as much a hand in it as their predecessors--and one of them, Anderson, is calling this month that it is time to "give Joseph a break."

Whitney's got this ass backwards. The currently leaders, who live in this information/internet age, themselves know that the manuals etc still being shipped from the COB is a misleading lie. They could stop it, but at best hide short essays in a far corner of lds.org, essays that only admit a bit of what is commonly known BY THE FP/12. For example, what was in the 55 page essay on Race and the Priesthood that got pared out when they dumbed it down to just a handful of pages. The deception continues, by the current FP/12. They continue to crank out the propaganda. They are liars.
_Gadianton
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _Gadianton »

Sock wrote:Whitney's problem is that the Corporation of the President touts itself as the lord's church...


Right. We can blame Phillip Morris for covering up the dangers of smoking, but is anyone really shocked? The Church presents itself as God's unadulterated mouthpiece. In some respects this has become a formality, few expect the Brethren to come up with new prophecy. But in other respects, church authorities are literal representatives of the Lord and are taken that way by the membership. The Church is obsessed with personal virtue and the leading virtue is honesty. "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous..."

Members are to pay honest tithes, to be honest with the Bishop and the Lord, and honest in their dealings with their fellow man. Next to Jesus himself, who exemplified honesty better than Joseph Smith? We grew up on stories from Joseph Smith's life, where the things Joseph did were lessons that teach us what we should do. He was the honest, unassuming farm boy, whose only fault was tom-foolery; he got into water fights and wrestled, and well, he wasn't groomed to be a gentleman. But people with manners who observe every convention are fake and pretentious, and it was precisely Joseph's Smith's simpleton lack of pretention that allowed him to see through the phoniness of the religions of his day. In other words, Joseph Smith's greatest virtue as a boy, honesty, was only slightly offset by one fault -- honesty.

The expectation the member has to be honest from the authority of scripture to the standards of the Church, and continuing to lessons from the lives of church leaders put the member in a very difficult position when the member begins to learn that his entire worldview was born of a pathological liar, and brought to him by a complicit organization willing to lie as necessary, to do whatever it takes, to keep the member faithful and truthful in his or her interactions with the Church and church authorities.

I for one say that we should continue to say that we've been lied to.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_honorentheos
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _honorentheos »

Being post-Mormon, I prefer to examine Mormonism through a lens that does not consider the claims of direct communication from God. This starts to be problematic, to my mind, because I have no way of determining what such an institution would look like in fact, but only as conjecture.

It leads to a form of circular argument. It's better, in my opinion, to examine the Church through framing the question of if it aligns with values I believe are just and virtue-based. It fails on all counts, largely, and were someone able to prove God's existence and preference for the LDS faith it leaves me with the same position. I don't want any part of it any longer.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _Fence Sitter »

SteelHead wrote:
consiglieri wrote:And now Brent Metcalfe has weighed in.


As he should.
It must be a bitter irony indeed, being excommunicated for discussing that which the church now admits to in its own essays.


Here is what Brent had to say.

Brent Metcalfe in the comments section wrote:Hi Brian,

Thanks for your essay. You make several valid observations that deserve serious consideration.

Where I feel your essay fails (and I do mean *fails*) is in three words that you repeat twice in the second-to-last paragraph:

“It’s a shame”

“It’s a shame” when you get to the grocery store and you’ve forgotten you credit card. “It’s a shame” when you’ve not added the proper number of eggs to your cake recipe. “It’s a shame” when you arrive a half hour late to the parent-teacher conference and the teacher has already left.

As someone who was excommunicated for editing and contributing to _New Approaches to the Book of Mormon_ in the aftermath of the so-called “September Six” and watched families torn apart over issues that the LDS church would never excommunicate someone for today, “It’s a shame” fails on every level to capture what many of us experienced firsthand.

You’re my friend, Brian, I trust that you won’t find my candor offensive.

My best,

Brent


and another comment from Brent

Brian, just a quick comment on your reply to Gary.

Boyd Packer didn’t merely engage in willful ignorance. I know this secondhand through a fairly reliable source—Tom Monson. He and I met for an hour or so in November 1983 to discuss my forced resignation from LDS church security (which happened in April 1983 as a result of a few apologetic articles I had written for _The Seventh East Press_). He explained that he favored a more direct approach to Mormon history and gave a specific example.

When Dean Jessee edited _My Dear Son: Letters of Brigham Young to His Sons_, he had to have it approved by the Q15. In a Q15 meeting Packer objected to the publication of a letter that acknowledged tobacco usage by Brigham and one of his sons, saying that the letter had no place in the volume and needed to be removed. Tom Monson and a few others disagreed and said the letters are what they are and that they either be published as is or not at all. The Q15 approved the volume for publication despite Packer’s *fully informed* objection. (Dean subsequently confirmed these details to me.)

Bottom line: We need to stop making excuses for the past misbehavior of adults in power if we really want to move on.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Kishkumen
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _Kishkumen »

Brent Metcalfe is superb. We are so lucky to have a guy like that in the conversation.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_malkie
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _malkie »

Don't worry, I'm not going to mention his name three times, but I cannot help wondering about the whereabouts of the MDB member who most often and most consistently has been known to accuse people of lying.
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_RockSlider
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _RockSlider »

I wonder how Margaret and Paul Toscano are feeling about this right now?

Who answers for all the pain?
_malkie
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _malkie »

RockSlider wrote:I wonder how Margaret and Paul Toscano are feeling about this right now?

Who answers for all the pain?

Well, we already know better than for anyone to expect an apology for anything.
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_suniluni2
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Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _suniluni2 »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Brent Metcalfe in the comments section wrote:Hi Brian,
...
As someone who was excommunicated for editing and contributing to _New Approaches to the Book of Mormon_ in the aftermath of the so-called “September Six” and watched families torn apart over issues that the LDS church would never excommunicate someone for today, “It’s a shame” fails on every level to capture what many of us experienced firsthand.




What was the problem with the New Approaches to the Book of Mormon? And how do we know someone wouldn't be ex'ed today for the same thing?
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