Ballard publicly denounces Catholicism.

[_I have a question]

Well, it's pretty clear that a delusion bought into by 1.5 billion people and led by an individual who is well known and respected the world over does have a much greater impact on humanity than a delusion with less than 1% as many adherents and led by a incestuous group of less than honest old men who regularly make fools of themselves, and a laughing stock of their religion, on the national and international stage.

Delusion? Not. Neither the Catholic Church OR the LDS Church could be characterized as such. And, by the way, the Catholic Church is an organization that teaches many correct gospel truths. Pope Francis is a good man doing much good. Your characterization of the LDS Church and its members being deluded is misguided and myopic.

Which members of the 1st Presidency and/or Council of the Twelve are "incestuous"?

You seem to be a very angry old man who lies in order to get his kicks and giggles. Take you seriously, however? Nope. Not only angry, it seems, but you're also deluded to the point that you would claim that these righteous men that we just listened to at Conference are incestuous.

Shame on you. If you're even capable of feeling such.

You're not worth listening to...period...after reading this libelous post.

Good day, sir.

Regards,
MG

Why so upset?
DrW is only doing the same as Ballard did. Publicly expressing a clear view about someone's religion. Is what Ballard stated - that Catholics don't know who God is, etc likewise libelous? If not why not?

Shame on Ballard for slagging off the competition.

[_Maksutov]

You're not worth listening to...period...after reading this libelous post.

Good day, sir.

Regards,
MG

What, you couldn't manage that last flip? What kind of gymnast are you?

Explain "libelous" in relation to the LDS church and Sarah Pratt, the people murdered at Mountain Meadows, Thomas Sharp, D. Michael Quinn....the list goes on. Your church is not only a libelous institution, I doubt that it can be libeled due to its awful history.

Good day, sir.

[_DrW]

Well, it's pretty clear that a delusion bought into by 1.5 billion people and led by an individual who is well known and respected the world over does have a much greater impact on humanity than a delusion with less than 1% as many adherents and led by a incestuous group of less than honest old men who regularly make fools of themselves, and a laughing stock of their religion, on the national and international stage.

Delusion? Not. Neither the Catholic Church OR the LDS Church could be characterized as such. And, by the way, the Catholic Church is an organization that teaches many correct gospel truths. Pope Francis is a good man doing much good. Your characterization of the LDS Church and its members being deluded is misguided and myopic.

Which members of the 1st Presidency and/or Council of the Twelve are "incestuous"?

You seem to be a very angry old man who lies in order to get his kicks and giggles. Take you seriously, however? Nope. Not only angry, it seems, but you're also deluded to the point that you would claim that these righteous men that we just listened to at Conference are incestuous.

Shame on you. If you're even capable of feeling such.

You're not worth listening to...period...after reading this libelous post.

Good day, sir.

Regards,
MG

MG,

Did you consider the following before claiming my post upthread contained lies?

Q1. Are there 1.5 billion Catholics? .

A1. Yes. According to the Census of the 2015 Annuario Pontificio (Pontifical Yearbook), the number of Catholics in the world was about 1.254 billion at the end of 2013. Estimates of the current worldwide population of Catholics rounds off to 1.5 billion.


Q2. Are there only 15 million Mormons?

A2. Probably not even that. But since this is what the LDS Church claims, even though many of those counted do not even self identify as Mormons, we will use this number.


Q3.Is the Pope of the Catholic Church known and respected worldwide?

A3. Absolutely.


Q4. Does the Catholic Church have a greater impact on humanity than the LDS Church?

A4. Yes. The recent move toward normalization of relations between the US and Cuba, as brokered by Pope Francis, is just one example.


Q5. Are the leaders of the LDS Church old men?

A5. Yes.


Q6. Could top LDS leadership be considered incestuous?

A6. Yes. See D. Michael Quinn's, The Mormon Hierarchy Origins of Power (1994) and The Mormon Hierarchy Extension of Power (1997).


Q7.Are these men, as a group, less than honest?

A7. No doubt. One need look no further than the teachings of Boyd K Packer, or the recent essays approved by the First Presidency, and released and published by the Church, admitting as much.


Q8. Do LDS leaders regularly make fools of themselves?

A8. Yes. Starting with Joseph Smith's lying about his adultery and polyandry and continuing through the secret polygamy for years after the Manifesto on down to their collective response to the Hoffman affair (which showed that these men who spoke for God had less insight into the realities of Church history and Hoffman's claims than did the Tanners), or the Prop 8 fiasco in Californian when they lied about the amount of money spent by the LDS Church to get that legislation passed and narrowly avoided criminal charges because of it, the willfully ignorant Mormon leaders do make fools of themselves.


Q9. Is the LDS Church a laughing stock on the national and international stage?

A9. Four words: The Book of Mormon. Doesn't matter whether one is talking about the Broadway musical or the book itself, either one will do.


Q10. Are TBMs delusional?

A10. According to DSM V, signs and symptoms of delusional disorder can include the following:

1.The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.

2. That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.

3. Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.

4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.

5. There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.

6. An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.

7. The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural and religious background.

8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche.

9. The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.

That's 8 out of 9 (or 89% delusional).

That being said, am I really angry old man who hates Mormons?

No, not in the least. I happen to be a relatively healthy and happy individual with a family that is Mormon on both sides (some inactive), and we do very well. I have simply grown up enough to recognize the that the religious nonsense that was fed to me in my youth really is just that - religious nonsense.

However, none of that does diminishes any of the above.

[_ludwigm]

Q1 ... Q10.

A new CES letter?

or
"The voice of one crying in the wilderness"
- Matthew 3:3
- Mark 1:3
- Luke 3:4
- John 1:23

[_Ceeboo]

Hey W!

Q1. Are there 1.5 billion Catholics? .

Yes - but I believe that only 1.3 billion of them are delusional!

Q6. Could top LDS leadership be considered incestuous?

This doesn't sit well in my belly.
And, in my opinion - it's not a fair comment.

Q9. Is the LDS Church a laughing stock on the national and international stage?

I don't think so.
The LDS Church is not even on the national and/or international stage.

4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.

8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche.

I have you down for 4 and 8.
I guess that makes you almost 1/4 delusional too!

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_pashaman]

1.The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.

2. That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.

3. Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.

4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.

5. There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.

6. An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.

7. The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural and religious background.

8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche.

9. The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.

Well, to be fair, if you take all of these points being dependent on point 7, which this list seems to suggest, then all of these points are discounted and irrelevant since Mormon beliefs ARE in keeping with their social, cultural and religious background. So, if you remove point 7, then yes, Mormon beliefs are pretty delusional, but you can't characterize a person raised in Mormonism as delusional or their expressions of belief as delusional.

[_cafe crema]

Hey W!

Q6. Could top LDS leadership be considered incestuous?

This doesn't sit well in my belly.
And, in my opinion - it's not a fair comment.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Full Definition of INCESTUOUS
1
: constituting or involving incest
2
: guilty of incest
3
: excessively or improperly intimate or exclusive <mainstream fashion magazines have an incestuous relationship with advertisers — Guy Trebay>

It seems the LDS leadership could be considered incestuous according to the third definition. While it isn't part of the definition of incestuous I usually see it as including nepotism.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey cafe crema!

(Good to see you hanging out at the MDB!)

Full Definition of INCESTUOUS
1
: constituting or involving incest
2
: guilty of incest
3
: excessively or improperly intimate or exclusive <mainstream fashion magazines have an incestuous relationship with advertisers — Guy Trebay>

It seems the LDS leadership could be considered incestuous according to the third definition. While it isn't part of the definition of incestuous I usually see it as including nepotism.

Yeah - I didn't even know about #3. (???)
In my world (perhaps narrow and small?) incestuous has a very negative meaning that involves incest.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Maksutov]

Hey cafe crema!

(Good to see you hanging out at the MDB!)

It seems the LDS leadership could be considered incestuous according to the third definition. While it isn't part of the definition of incestuous I usually see it as including nepotism.

Yeah - I didn't even know about #3. (???)
In my world (perhaps narrow and small?) incestuous has a very negative meaning that involves incest.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Understandable, Ceeboo.

Here's a little background. The degree of Mormon intermarriage in the elite leadership was the subject of D. Michael Quinn's Yale dissertation.

"The Mormon Hierarchy, 1832-1932: An American Elite." Ph.D. dissertation, Yale University, New Haven, Conn., 1976.

If you look into how Brigham Young ordained his sons apostles you can understand why a church wag said that leadership was "more about relation than revelation". Of course, it's true of all kinds of institutions and groups, but some Saints see it as affirmation that there are more spiritual bloodlines in the church. Oh brother.

Here's from Quinn's article in Dialogue, Summer, 1984:

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N02_11.pdf

................

At the most obvious, the importance of family interrelationships can be
seen in the fact that 23.6 percent of the men appointed to the Mormon hierarchy
between 1832 and 1932 were sons of other General Authorities. Revelations
dictated by Joseph Smith and subsequent pronouncements by his successors
in office have indicated that men have the right (or at least the predisposition)
to preside in the LDS Church by virtue of their familial lineage.23
Although only the office of Presiding Patriarch was restricted to patrilineal succession,
all other echelons of the Mormon hierarchy demonstrated intricate family
interrelationships. Figure 3 shows in italic capitals the names of appointees
from one extended family. In the Mormon hierarchy, relationships as distant
as fifth and sixth cousin were recognized and honored, and the men often
referred to one another as "kinsmen" or "cousins."
24
Moreover, General Authorities used marriage to bring into the hierarchical
family men who were unrelated by kinship, as well as to reinforce distant
cousin relationships. For example, Joseph Smith married in polygamy the
sister of his fourth cousin, Apostle Willard Richards, and contracted a similar
marriage with the sister of Brigham Young (who was Joseph Smith's acknowledged
sixth cousin). The marriage of children also aligned General Authorities
to one another. For example, recent LDS President David O. McKay
entered the hierarchy as an apostle in 1906 without being related by kinship or
marriage to any other General Authority, yet in 1928 his son married the niece
of Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, who was President McKay's successor in the
presidency.
The historically dynastic character of the Mormon hierarchy is further indicated
in Figure 4. Although the degree of kinship penetration was extensive
for the entire hierarchy, it is also evident that familial relationships were most
extensive within the most powerful echelons: the First Presidency and the
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

[_Ceeboo]

Morning Mak!

Understandable, Ceeboo.

Here's a little background. The degree of Mormon intermarriage in the elite leadership was the subject of D. Michael Quinn's Yale dissertation.

"The Mormon Hierarchy, 1832-1932: An American Elite." Ph.D. dissertation, Yale University, New Haven, Conn., 1976.

If you look into how Brigham Young ordained his sons apostles you can understand why a church wag said that leadership was "more about relation than revelation". Of course, it's true of all kinds of institutions and groups, but some Saints see it as affirmation that there are more spiritual bloodlines in the church. Oh brother.

Thanks for the post.

The label still doesn't sit well with me and I still think it was a poor choice to use it. (But - maybe that's just me?)

Peace,
Ceeboo