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The "Give Joseph a Break" thread had me thinking. This is actually a good thing to do. We need to re-examine people who have been condemned by "outsiders". Those eticists get way too much air time!

So, here are some modest proposals for breaks-giving:

Give Judas a Break: Look, if Judas hadn't betrayed Christ, the crucifixion and atonement wouldn't have happened. That would have furthered Satan's plan. And Judas even killed himself to make the whole story especially useful for future propaganda. What a guy. Three Cheers for Judas!

Give John D. Lee a Break: Yeah, so he killed some people. It's not like he was the first or the last. He said he was sorry. And he was just doing it out of misguided loyalty, trying to protect his own persecuted people. And hey, he was reinstated in membership later and his descendant is a U. S. Senator! John D. Lee, a great LDS hero!

Give Mao Zedong a Break: China was a mess. It took someone with bold ideas and strong resolve to clean up the mess. Somebody who knew you have to bust a few eggshells. Starve a few million people. Commit sexist genocide. Create a cult of personality and millions of fanatics. Yes, he was a disgusting human being but he saved millions, somehow, more or less.

There's a lot of underestimated heroes like this. Sometimes God works through imperfect instruments. What do you expect?

Give Satan a break, he's only doing what God wants him to do as part of the whole plan of salvation thing. Without Satan the plan falls apart. So yeah, give Lucifer a break guys.

I have a question wrote:Give Satan a break, he's only doing what God wants him to do as part of the whole plan of salvation thing. Without Satan the plan falls apart. So yeah, give Lucifer a break guys.

--John Milton

Maksutov wrote:

I have a question wrote:Give Satan a break, he's only doing what God wants him to do as part of the whole plan of salvation thing. Without Satan the plan falls apart. So yeah, give Lucifer a break guys.

--John Milton

Maksutov wrote:Give Judas a Break: Look, if Judas hadn't betrayed Christ, the crucifixion and atonement wouldn't have happened. That would have furthered Satan's plan. And Judas even killed himself to make the whole story especially useful for future propaganda. What a guy. Three Cheers for Judas!

+

here, years ago I wrote:

CaliforniaKid wrote:Judas’s betrayal ...

What Could Have Jesus Done - without Judas the obedient?
Should have he denounce himself to Caiaphas or Pilate??
That "betrayal" was the first step to redemption.

Judas simply obeyed the command: "That thou doest, do quickly". (John 13:27)
Probably, they have negotiated it before.

The other disciples didn't know what is all about: "Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him". (John 13:28)

Maksutov wrote:There's a lot of underestimated heroes like this. Sometimes God works through imperfect instruments. What do you expect?

Give Cain a break. God refused his offering of vegetables instead of killing and sacrificing animals. The more deeply one thinking about this story, the more one sees in it the same God that spoke to Job...maybe that's it with Joseph Smith, too? Maybe our mistake is in giving God a break by default?

From Howard Nemerov's poem titled, "Cain" -

Cain
If I were sorry, would you raise Abel up?

God
No.

Cain
Then I am not sorry. Because you have saved me
from everything but the necessity of being me,
I say it is Your fault. None of this need have happened.
And even my mother's temptation by the serpent in the Garden
would not have happened but for You; I see now,
having chosen myself, what her choice must have been.

God
Cain, I will tell you a secret.

Cain
I am listening

God
I was the serpent in the Garden.

Cain
I can believe that, but nobody else will.
I see it so well, that You are the master of the will
that works two ways at once, whose action
is it's on punishment, the cause
that is it's own result. It will be pain to me
to reject You, but I do it, in Your own world,
where everything that is will speak of You,
and I will be deaf.

God
You do not reject me. You cannot.

Cain
I do not expect it to be easy.
(after some silence)
I said, I do not expect it to be easy.
But he is gone, I feel His absence.
As, after the storm's black accent
the light grows wide and distant again,
so He is gone, or all He said to me,
only one thing remains. I send you away.
He said: Cain, I send you away.
But where is Away? Is it where Abel is,
my brother, as lonely and still as that?

honorentheos wrote:Give Cain a break. God refused his offering of vegetables instead of killing and sacrificing animals. The more deeply one thinking about this story, the more one sees in it the same God that spoke to Job...maybe that's it with Joseph Smith, too? Maybe our mistake is in giving God a break by default?

From Howard Nemerov's poem titled, "Cain" -

Cain
If I were sorry, would you raise Abel up?

God
No.

Cain
Then I am not sorry. Because you have saved me
from everything but the necessity of being me,
I say it is Your fault. None of this need have happened.
And even my mother's temptation by the serpent in the Garden
would not have happened but for You; I see now,
having chosen myself, what her choice must have been.

God
Cain, I will tell you a secret.

Cain
I am listening

God
I was the serpent in the Garden.

Cain
I can believe that, but nobody else will.
I see it so well, that You are the master of the will
that works two ways at once, whose action
is it's on punishment, the cause
that is it's own result. It will be pain to me
to reject You, but I do it, in Your own world,
where everything that is will speak of You,
and I will be deaf.

God
You do not reject me. You cannot.

Cain
I do not expect it to be easy.
(after some silence)
I said, I do not expect it to be easy.
But he is gone, I feel His absence.
As, after the storm's black accent
the light grows wide and distant again,
so He is gone, or all He said to me,
only one thing remains. I send you away.
He said: Cain, I send you away.
But where is Away? Is it where Abel is,
my brother, as lonely and still as that?

Had not read that in a long time, thanks. I would put it with Twain's Letters from Earth and the Grand Inquisitor episode in The Brothers Karamasov. Dostoyevsky got it.

Maksutov wrote:Had not read that in a long time, thanks. I would put it with Twain's Letters from Earth and the Grand Inquisitor episode in The Brothers Karamasov. Dostoyevsky got it.

I like that.

It would be interesting to see someone take on the story of a Joseph Smith who was as flawed as we all see him to be, but who was conflicted with his appetites while the God that spoke to him was commanding him to have sex with other women...because He was the serpent in the garden. I'd love to see that done well.

I vote that we give breaks to the following people:

Lavina Fielding Anderson
Kate Kelly
Lynne Kanavel Whitesides
Janice Allred
Margaret Toscano
Paul Toscano
John Dehlin
Denver Snuffer
Rock Waterman
Michael Quinn
etc.
etc.

And give the Negroes a break for being less valiant in the pre-existence. And on a related note, give the Mexicans and Indians a break for being descended from Lamanites. Isn't it time that God made all the dark races white again? How long is he going to hold a grudge?