John Dehlin: A Spy Story

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Kishkumen wrote:
In this case, I have to agree with Tobin. It is not that LDS people lack principles. It's just that those principles can be overridden by the demands of their LDS Church membership. It simply is a fact that narcing on fellow members is a policy of the LDS Church. And we can add that long list of instances of spying from earlier in the 20th century that Brother Maksutov reminded us of.

I am sorry, hagoth7, but whether you like it or not, there is a rich history of spying and invasion of privacy in Mormonism. I do not say this to condemn Mormons, but to point out that such policies, some of which remain today in the Church Handbook of Instructions, encourage people to inform on each other.


I'd like to believe that hagoth7 is right, but I'm skeptical. People do amazingly terrible things when commanded/requested to by authority figures. I think that is especially true when the authority figure is viewed as having some authority from a supreme being. I don't agree with Tobin that it has anything to do with Mormons lacking courage. I think it has everything to do with being a human being.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Kishkumen
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _Kishkumen »

Maksutov wrote:It's a very ugly part of the LDS culture, Reverend. I can remember when the Salt Lake City Police Department was working with the Wilkinson administration at BYU to identify Y students at the city's few gay bars. Then there were the spies on campus listening in on evil "liberal" professors. Eugene England confirmed to me in 1976 that this was still continuing under Oaks but lower key. There was also the case of Douglas Wallace, a quirky LDS dissident who dissented at General Conference and earned, not just a Church security detachment, but a SLCPD surveillance op that ended with the accidental crippling of an officer. All that within about a 10-15 year span of time. Who knows what has been going on the last 40 years? That's why these online fora are important, because these issues are rarely treated in the conventional press.


I recall an unfortunate event in my undergraduate years that I believe was the byproduct of this ingrained culture of spying on BYU campus.

One of my professors, who was, as I later learned, a troubled fellow, accused me of spying on him and reporting to the department chairman. I was devastated by the accusation. I had come to this fellow's office billowed aloft by unbridled excitement to tell one of my favorite professors that I would be doing what he had always encouraged us to do: visit Greece. His response was to tell me: "So that's what they paid you for spying on me all these years."

Man, was I ever crestfallen. No, truly devastated. This professor had so inspired me with his excitement for ancient Greece that I changed my major to Classics. Now he was accusing me of betraying him. But it had been my parents who, as a graduation present, paid my way to Greece. The memory of the unexpected and jarring confrontation still hurts to this day.

So, yes, this professor was a troubled person, and yet the way he acted out was consistent with the culture of spying that had long existed on campus, and continued to exist at the very time I was accused. Spies were planted in the classes of Prof. Cecilia Konchar Farr to gather dirt on her for her colleagues (and probably administrators).

As much as I enjoyed my time at BYU, its culture of spying and informing marred my experience and the experience of many other students.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _Kishkumen »

Brad Hudson wrote:I'd like to believe that hagoth7 is right, but I'm skeptical. People do amazingly terrible things when commanded/requested to by authority figures. I think that is especially true when the authority figure is viewed as having some authority from a supreme being. I don't agree with Tobin that it has anything to do with Mormons lacking courage. I think it has everything to do with being a human being.


Indeed, look at the Milgram Experiment. Many were willing to administer what they thought were lethal shocks on the orders of an authority figure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Of course, there are criticisms of Milgram, but I think it is fair to say that a disturbingly large percentage of people are willing to hurt others on the orders of an authority figure. In day to day living, many of these same people are probably decent, upstanding citizens.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Yahoo Bot
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

St. Paul in the New Testament required his churches to investigate ""trouble[makers" and "cut them off," using a pun relating to castration.

It is a thoroughly distasteful task, but an excommunication for apostasy requires some evidence-gathering. I'm glad I have nothing to do with it.

Certainly, I've had people from this board go to my stake president and my employer (I was self-employed) over the things I've posted here. I just shrug my shoulders and continue on.
_Tobin
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _Tobin »

Yahoo Bot wrote:St. Paul in the New Testament required his churches to investigate ""trouble[makers" and "cut them off," using a pun relating to castration.

It is a thoroughly distasteful task, but an excommunication for apostasy requires some evidence-gathering. I'm glad I have nothing to do with it.

Certainly, I've had people from this board go to my stake president and my employer (I was self-employed) over the things I've posted here. I just shrug my shoulders and continue on.


I think it is interesting you failed to cite this supposed teaching of St Paul. But let's suppose for fun that he said all that. Does it even sound like a good Christian principle to encourage members to spy on each other to discover their sins just to report them to your leaders so they have cause to excommunicate them? I don't know about you Bot, but that seems like a rather nasty organization to be associated with.
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_fetchface
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _fetchface »

Yahoo Bot wrote:St. Paul in the New Testament required his churches to investigate ""trouble[makers" and "cut them off," using a pun relating to castration.

So the church castrates itself when it excommunicates people? Maybe he was making a case against excommunicating people if that is indeed an intentional pun.
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_Maksutov
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _Maksutov »

fetchface wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:St. Paul in the New Testament required his churches to investigate ""trouble[makers" and "cut them off," using a pun relating to castration.

So the church castrates itself when it excommunicates people? Maybe he was making a case against excommunicating people if that is indeed an intentional pun.


Maybe a condition of early Christian membership was that the church owns your junk. So if you leave, your junk stays. I think Paul was my ex-wife. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

Tobin wrote:
I think it is interesting you failed to cite this supposed teaching of St Paul. But let's suppose for fun that he said all that. Does it even sound like a good Christian principle to encourage members to spy on each other to discover their sins just to report them to your leaders so they have cause to excommunicate them? I don't know about you Bot, but that seems like a rather nasty organization to be associated with.


You don't know anything about my associations. Plus, you're a demonstrated idiot. In any event, I don't think evidence-gathering from public statements is "spying". I do it when I hire somebody, when somebody's suing my clients, etc. I fired an expert witness in psychiatry when it was brought to my attention that he posted his experiences with orgies on his Facebook page. Is that "spying?"

Spying is secretly recording a conversation without telling somebody, among other things.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _Kishkumen »

Yahoo Bot wrote:Spying is secretly recording a conversation without telling somebody, among other things.


Secretly gathering information to use against someone is a form of spying. Delhi's EQP sought access to private online fora in order to gather information against him there. That clearly qualifies as spying on John.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Yahoo Bot
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Re: John Dehlin: A Spy Story

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

Kishkumen wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:Spying is secretly recording a conversation without telling somebody, among other things.


Secretly gathering information to use against someone is a form of spying. Delhi's EQP sought access to private online fora in order to gather information against him there. That clearly qualifies as spying on John.


No it isn't. What "private online fora" is not a public forum if it admits anonymous posters?
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