Curious about Alvin Smith

[_churchistrue]

In the first Angel Moroni visit, he told Joseph to bring Alvin the next year. Alvin died two months later.

What are the theories, both faithful and critical, on this?

Why did Moroni tell Joseph to bring Alvin?

When did Joseph tell others he was told this by Moroni? Before or after Alvin died?

Is it a possible critical argument that the Alvin story was a thing like Joseph was creating an excuse for himself before he went back on the second visit? ie many people probably look at this and say "how convenient", but that would only be if Joseph started circulating this after Alvin died, stating it as if he was told this before he died.

[_fetchface]

I haven't read Quinn's magic world view book, but that's where I would start if I were looking into this.

[_Tobin]

First, prove there was ever a Moroni, let alone an Angel Moroni. Then we can discuss what he may or may not have said to Joseph Smith. I'm rather uninterested in what a likely fictional character supposedly said or didn't say to Joseph Smith.

[_Sethbag]

It would certainly be odd if Joseph made this up after the fact. At least if it was God's personal messenger, rather than just some "old spirit guardian" who he claimed appeared to him.

One might expect God to know the future, and let his foreknowledge of what was to come inform his instructions to his messenger in regards to his visit to Joseph. With just some "old spirit guardian" or whatever, all bets are off. Would the omniscience we'd ascribe to God have applied to the "spirit guardians" of hidden treasures and whatnot?

This seems like the kind of thing a "spirit guardian" of a specific hidden treasure might do, ie: give commands incompatible with an unknowable future, rather than something Elohim might instruct Jesus to instruct Moroni to go tell Joseph.

[_Fence Sitter]

I haven't read Quinn's magic world view book, but that's where I would start if I were looking into this.

EM & TMWV is required reading.

by the way from what I understand Moroni didn't say anything about Alvin having to be alive to be the "key". Might explain why his grave was exhumed.

[_churchistrue]

I haven't read Quinn's magic world view book, but that's where I would start if I were looking into this.

EM & TMWV is required reading.

by the way from what I understand Moroni didn't say anything about Alvin having to be alive to be the "key". Might explain why his grave was exhumed.

Yes, I've read that. I'm mostly curious about the timing of when this information came out about Alvin, which is unclear.

[_SuperDell]

The Alvin thing was when it was Nephi who visited. Once he decided it was really Moroni, Alvin was cosigned to the dustbin of MoronicPriesthood Obscurity.

[_fetchface]

Yes, I've read that. I'm mostly curious about the timing of when this information came out about Alvin, which is unclear.

Well, what are the sources for the story? Look at the source, when it surfaced, etc. and decide what you think its likelihood of being true is.

My critical theory on this is that the reason Moroni might have asked for Alvin to be there is that Moroni didn't exist and so this was a prediction about the future by Joseph (a man) and was prone to errors of this sort. Pretty simple theory.

Any 'faithful' theory that accepts the premise that Moroni made this request is going to be necessarily pretty convoluted since Mormons believe in a God who knows the future. Maybe God knew Alvin was going to die but likes messing with people? Whatever the reason is, it will almost undoubtedly invoke the ineffability of God's ways.

[_churchistrue]

Yes, I've read that. I'm mostly curious about the timing of when this information came out about Alvin, which is unclear.

Well, what are the sources for the story? Look at the source, when it surfaced, etc. and decide what you think its likelihood of being true is.

My critical theory on this is that the reason Moroni might have asked for Alvin to be there is that Moroni didn't exist and so this was a prediction about the future by Joseph (a man) and was prone to errors of this sort. Pretty simple theory.

Any 'faithful' theory that accepts the premise that Moroni made this request is going to be necessarily pretty convoluted since Mormons believe in a God who knows the future. Maybe God knew Alvin was going to die but likes messing with people? Whatever the reason is, it will almost undoubtedly invoke the ineffability of God's ways.

I used to assume the LDS faithful version of this was to question the sources claiming Moroni asked for Alvin, but upon more study it seems this is solid enough information that it must be accepted by LDS. But I wondered if that was still a tactic. This http://publications.maxwellinstitute.by ... 46&index=5 and this https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/08/the- ... n?lang=eng don't give any solid answers. Is there anything new?

On the critical side of things, I guess there would be a few views.
1. Joseph said Moroni said bring Alvin because the family wanted to position Alvin as the prophet. I seem to recall reading this theory but can't remember the details. Then Alvin died and it threw a wrench in the plan.
2. Joseph was framing Moroni as a treasure guardian that was demanding random stuff to obey to get the treasure, and it was even more random that Alvin died.
3. Joseph didn't circulate the "angel told me to bring Alvin" story until after Alvin died. The reason being it would buy him more time and allow him to drag the story out longer (why drag it out? dunno). He knew when he came home empty handed the second year, people would understand because Alvin wasn't around to bring.

I mainly just want to understand things better, and understanding how others interpret this would help me sort out my own theories.

[_grindael]

I think Joseph chose Alvin because he strongly believed in his brother's claims, (per Lucy Smith). He was also familiar with peep stones and used them according to Peter Ingersoll. See Dan Vogel's article here. This (that Joseph was to bring his brother) was disclosed by Joseph Knight and Willard Chase (who heard it from Smith, Sr.),

from thence he went to the hill where he was informed the record was and found no trouble for it appeard appears plain as though he was acquainted with the place it was so plain in the vision that he had of the place he went and found the place and opened it and found a plane box he oncovered it and found the book and took it out and laid atlitl it down by his side and thot he would cover the place over again thinkinking there might be something else here but he was told to take the book and go right away and after he had covered the place he turned round to take the book and it was not there and he was astonished that the book was gone he thot he would look in the place again and see if it had not got back again he had heard people tell of such things and he opened the box and behold the book was there he took hold of it to take it out again and behold he could not stur the book any more then he could the mountin he exclaimed why can't I stur this book and he was answerd you have not done rite you should have took the book and a gone right away youcant you can't have it now joseph says when can I have it the answer was the 22nt day of september next if you bring the right person with you joseph says who is the right person the answer was your oldest brother but before september came his oldest brother died then he was disapinted and did not know what to do but when the 22nt day of september came he went to the place and the personage appeard appears and told him he could not have it now but the 22nt day of september nex he mite have the book if he brot with him the right person joseph says who is the right person the answer was you will know then he looked in his glass and found it was emma hale daughter of old mr hail of pensylvany a girl that he had seen before for he had bin down there before with me (Joseph Knight Recollection)

In the month of June, 1827, Joseph Smith, Sen., related to me the following story: "That some years ago, a spirit had appeared to Joseph his son, in a vision, and informed him that in a certain place there was a record on plates of gold, and that he was the person that must obtain them, and this he must do in the following manner: On the 22d of September, he must repair to the place where was deposited this manuscript, dressed in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail, and demand the book in a certain name, and after obtaining it, he must go directly away, and neither lay it down nor look behind him. They accordingly fitted out Joseph with a suit of black clothes and borrowed a black horse. He repaired to the place of deposit and demanded the book, which was in a stone box, unsealed, and so near the top of the ground that he could see one end of it, and raising it up, took out the book of gold; but fearing some one might discover where he got it, he laid it down to place back the top stone, as he found it; and turning round, to his surprise there was no book in sight. He again opened the box, and in it saw the book, and attempted to take it out, but was hindered. He saw in the box something like a toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man, and struck him on the side of his head. — Not being discouraged at trifles, he again stooped down and strove to take the book, when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously. After recovering from his fright, he enquired why he could not obtain the plates; to which the spirit made reply, because you have not obeyed your orders. He then enquired when he could have them, and was answered thus: come one year from this day, and bring with you your oldest brother, and you shall have them. This spirit, he said was the spirit of the prophet who wrote this book, and who was sent to Joseph Smith, to make known these things to him. Before the expiration of the year, his oldest brother died; which the old man said was an accidental providence! "Joseph went one year from that day, to demand the book, and the spirit enquired for his brother, and he said that he was dead. The spirit then commanded him to come again, in just one year, and bring a man with him. On asking who might be the man, he was answered that he would know him when he saw him."(Mormonism Unvailed, 240-48, published in 1834)

There is a theory that Joseph dug up the grave of his brother Alvin and brought part of his body to the hill. That is the reason why his father later re-dug up the grave and published something about it in a local paper.