SteelHead wrote:Really, you think society can't come up with those kinds of things on their own? The code of Hammurab predates the 10 commandments. Confucius, Lao, Mo Tzu, Buddha predate Christ. Maybe you ought to read what he taught. Chinese humanism taught many of these ethics, long before Jesus arrived on the scene.
An excellent question! "Doing the work first, and considering the reward afterwards;" is that not piling up virtue? "Attack the evil that is within yourself, rather than attacking the evil that is in others;" is this not repairing shortcomings?
Because of a morning's blind rage To forget one's own safety And even endanger one's kith and kind -Confucius
"If all people in the world love each other, states do not attack on each other, families do not interfere with each other, no robbers and no thieves, kings and fathers are kind to their court officials and sons while court officials and sons are filial to their kings and fathers, if so, the whole world will be orderly.” -Mo Tzu
Amazing ideals; in which societies do we see them expressed? John steinbeck's writings promoted similar ideals, but just because someone knows how a human being should behave doesn't mean he behaves that way. Take a look at The other side of eden, life with John steinbeck. And hey, I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. Human experience is more complicated and does not fit well with how we're trying to reduce it to. I think we all live according to the stories of the reality we believe in, right or wrong. Jesus tended to change people's paradigms and rewrite their life narratives. A rebirth if you will.
SteelHead wrote:The teachings of Confucius were so influential that they were codified as the official religion of the kingdom.
I don't think it worked this way.
My version: "The teachings of Confucius were so influential to the leaders of the kingdom, that the leaders of the kingdom have codified it as the official religion of the kingdom."
While the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great reigned (306–337 AD), Christianity began to transition to the dominant religion of the Roman Empire. Historians remain uncertain about Constantine's reasons for favoring Christianity, and theologians and historians have argued about which form of Early Christianity he subscribed to. There is no consensus among scholars as to whether he adopted his mother Helena's Christianity in his youth, or (as claimed by Eusebius of Caesarea) encouraged her to convert to the faith himself. Some scholars question whether he should be considered a Christian at all: "Constantine saw himself as an 'emperor of the Christian people'. If this made him a Christian is the subject of ... debate.", and he did not receive baptism until shortly before his death.
Constantine's decision to cease the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire was a turning point for Early Christianity, sometimes referred to as the Triumph of the Church, the Peace of the Church or the Constantinian shift.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
How does that apply to our discussion of whether morality can evolve indepently of supernatural influencr?
I originally replied to the comment that one only needed to look within and find ones own definition of the moral life and what makes for a fulfilling life. I don't think this method works in the real world ultimately, because conflicting moral boundaries inevitably arise and break community. I believe morality can evolve independently of supernatural influence, but this morality is put into action only when it furthers our purposes. When the "moral rules" stifle what we think we need to obtain the fulfilling life, we break them. My suggestion is that we need an external source to tell us what is right and wrong. And the command to love onw another coming from diety seems to fit the bill well. What's left to drive someone to love an enemy when all you receive is pain and material loss? We're all self serving to the bitter end. Moral rules don't cut it.