"Powers of Discernment" and the Temple

[_ldsfaqs]

I don't know why you people think the Church's job is to be "lie detectors".
It's not.

The only "standard" the Church employ's is to take people at their word unless they have evidence and testimony otherwise.
So, what part of this is "lie detecting" to you people?

Discernment is a very specialized and unique gift, and it's entirely up to God to give it, and the person's ability to recieve it.
Further, you have no clue the amount of times the power of discernment works, but the leader can't do or say anything about it unless they have specific evidence. In other words, it would often be inappropriate for them to ask someone if they are a man, or ask a person if they are a child molester..... It's not like they are going to "admit it", and such amounts to an accusation without PROOF.

So, stop being bigots..... People "discern" all the time, and it doesn't just happen in the Church, yet there are many factors involved.

President David O. McKay promised every man who uses the priesthood in righteousness that he “will find his life sweetened, his discernment sharpened to decide quickly between right and wrong, his feelings tender and compassionate, yet his spirit strong and valiant in defense of right; he will find the priesthood a never failing source of happiness—a well of living water springing up unto eternal life” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay [2003], 116).

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... d?lang=eng

Discerning right and wrong in the context of that statement is more so WITHIN ONESELF..... not outside of it.

God doesn't generally reveal the "heart" and character of someone else, save a specialized few. But even then someone can be good but have a sinful nature, thus it's still extremely specialized.

[_Franktalk]

Discerning right and wrong in the context of that statement is more so WITHIN ONESELF..... not outside of it.

God doesn't generally reveal the "heart" and character of someone else, save a specialized few. But even then someone can be good but have a sinful nature, thus it's still extremely specialized.

No no a thousand times no. Do you know the scriptures? Anyone can have discernment. It is not a special gift from God for a specialized few of His choosing. It is us that makes the choice.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

All one has to do is cast out the natural man and become spiritual. Few actually do this. In the church I know of no one who is spiritual. If they were they would see through the leadership and leave. The church is filled with natural men, unable to discern anything of God. In fact the scripture is right. They think the things of God are foolishness.

Joseph Smith taught that we come to the earth in multiple probations. The church rejected that truth.

The Book of Mormon tells us that Genealogy is of man. Yet the church tells us that it is the work of the Father. It is used to baptize the dead. But we are the dead. We come back over and over. We are baptizing ourselves. Joseph must have laughed his ass off when the members accepted baptism for the dead.

Joseph said the next prophet would be Hyrum. He knew Hyrum would die. He was telling the church they would not have another prophet. They of course ignored him.

When Joseph gave out truth the members ignored him. When he gave them what they wanted they loved it. It is not easy to cast out what you believe is true. That flaw in human nature gives us churches which have no connection to God.

[_jo1952]

Actually yes, the church once it rejected truth and went with the desires of their hearts was indeed under condemnation. And yes this happened while Joseph Smith was still alive. It is similar to Moses. The children of Israel rejected the truth early on and most of the things taught by Moses were not from God. If you read the scriptures you will find a day in which Moses told the people to meet God. They rejected that and told Moses to meet God and let them know what He said. Joseph did not want a church, but the people did. Joseph did not want a priesthood but the people did. Joseph did not want leaders but the people did. We can use Moses to sort out law from the things of God. It is no accident that Jesus said he did away with the law but Joseph brought it back in direct violation of the Book of Mormon. The people wanted law to feel special in the sight of God. This goes for the Jews as well as the early church members. It even applies today. The church still teaches how it is special in the eyes of God. No way that matches the scriptures or gospel. It openly violates the second highest commandment.

The Book of Mormon even shares how Christ gave the people the desires of their hearts. But the Church, being puffed up in the pride of their religion, has missed that, too. Christ gave them what they wanted because He loved them; their free will desire overshadowed the words which the Father commanded Christ to speak to them.

3 Nephi 17

1 Behold, now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he looked round about again on the multitude, and he said unto them: Behold, my time is at hand.

2 I perceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot understand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time.

So, Christ had done what the Father commanded. He then asked the people to go home and think about what those words:

3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again.

4 But now I go unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them.

But the people didn't go home!!

5 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus spoken, he cast his eyes round about again on the multitude, and beheld they were in tears, and did look steadfastly upon him as if they would ask him to tarry a little longer with them.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, my bowels are filled with compassion towards you.

So Christ did things for the people which they desired....this, even though He had already done what the Father had commanded Him to do. In other words, it wasn't the Father who wanted Christ to do anything beyond giving them the words (in the previous chapters Christ had already given them the fulness of the gospel). The people wanted outward "signs" which, in the minds of the people, made the people feel special. At one point, Christ even groans because of this wickedness of the people:

....14 And it came to pass that when they had knelt upon the ground, Jesus groaned within himself, and said: Father, I am troubled because of the wickedness of the people of the house of Israel.

Chapter 18 continues to share what Christ did for the people AFTER He had finished doing what the Father had commanded. This is where you can see Christ giving the people religion.....in accordance with the desires of their hearts. Remember that God is not a respecter of persons; and that ALL are alike unto God. It is the natural man who desires iniquity. And in accordance with free will, True Messengers, and even Christ (also a True Messenger...but with a unique role) gave the people the trappings of religion which made them stand out (at least in their own eyes) above others. People of religion can only see what they want to see....even when it is inside of scripture. Christ had already done what Father wanted Him to do BEFORE He began to give them the desires of their hearts. As such, those things He gave them were not of the Father!!! They were NOT of God. They may look at the words which Father commanded Christ to give them; but they don't live them. They don't believe Christ. However, they DO live the religion Christ gave them AFTER He had already obeyed God's commandment; it makes them feel special and chosen.

[_grindael]

Actually yes, the church once it rejected truth and went with the desires of their hearts was indeed under condemnation. And yes this happened while Joseph Smith was still alive. It is similar to Moses. The children of Israel rejected the truth early on and most of the things taught by Moses were not from God. If you read the scriptures you will find a day in which Moses told the people to meet God. They rejected that and told Moses to meet God and let them know what He said. Joseph did not want a church, but the people did. Joseph did not want a priesthood but the people did. Joseph did not want leaders but the people did. We can use Moses to sort out law from the things of God. It is no accident that Jesus said he did away with the law but Joseph brought it back in direct violation of the Book of Mormon. The people wanted law to feel special in the sight of God. This goes for the Jews as well as the early church members. It even applies today. The church still teaches how it is special in the eyes of God. No way that matches the scriptures or gospel. It openly violates the second highest commandment.

So the Mormon Church had the "truth" and then rejected it and Joseph just simply played along? I really don't know you get this crap from. You just seem to make it up as you go along.

[_Chap]

I really don't know you get this crap from. You just seem to make it up as you go along.

Get with the program, Grindael. This is what some people on this board call a discussion. Basically it means people get to set out their 'beliefs' (which seems to be more or less whatever they have made up in their heads), and then someone else does it, and so on. If you ask them rude questions like "Excuse me, how do you know that is true?", then you are failing to treat their 'beliefs' with proper respect, and they will act hurt and refuse to answer. Usually at this point someone else will come along and give them big warm hugs and lots of smiley faces.

So why don't you make something up yourself and join in? The weirder and the more devoid of any factual basis the better.

[_I have a question]

When you read the attempted explanations about what a Prophets discernment is or isn't, might or might not be etc it really disappears into a puff of meaningless words. It's nothing. It's hindsight, it's the odd lucky guess, it's advice that may or may not be proven okay etc.

The standard definition is "the ability to judge well" and I'm really not seeing the evidence that LDS Brethren have a good track record against that definition. "Let's invest in real estate" shortly before the real estate bubble burst. "Let's go (mall) shopping" shortly before it became significantly more likely that people would shop online. Etc.

Is there evidence of LDS Prophets getting things right with any level of reliability above the rate at which a Magic 8 ball operates? Because they should. As a group, the Brethren should be the most reliable predictors and forecasters on the planet. But they're not. Why?

[_Maksutov]

This is what some people on this board call a discussion. Basically it means people get to set out their 'beliefs' (which seems to be more or less whatever they have made up in their heads), and then someone else does it, and so on. If you ask them rude questions like "Excuse me, how do you know that is true?", then you are failing to treat their 'beliefs' with proper respect, and they will act hurt and refuse to answer. Usually at this point someone else will come along and give them big warm hugs and lots of smiley faces.

[_Franktalk]

So the Mormon Church had the "truth" and then rejected it and Joseph just simply played along? I really don't know you get this crap from. You just seem to make it up as you go along.

I am sure it does appear that way. I did not make the rules in which the prophets are to follow. But the rules are laid out for us to read.

Eze 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

I did not write Eze 14. I just read it and compare what its says against the rest of the scriptures. For me it says I must sort out what every prophet has said. I must use the top two commandments to do so.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Verse 40 says that the prophets are bound by these commandments. So anything they speak which violates this commandment is not of God. This is the great dividing rod which separates out the gospel from the law. It also separates out the desires from men from the things of God.

I actually follow what the scriptures say. Most listen to orthodoxy and refuse to read the actual words in the scriptures. Since I am so far from orthodoxy it may seem I make stuff up. But my understanding of the scriptures is more logical and tied to scripture than orthodoxy.

[_Franktalk]

When you read the attempted explanations about what a Prophets discernment is or isn't, might or might not be etc it really disappears into a puff of meaningless words. It's nothing. It's hindsight, it's the odd lucky guess, it's advice that may or may not be proven okay etc.

The standard definition is "the ability to judge well" and I'm really not seeing the evidence that LDS Brethren have a good track record against that definition. "Let's invest in real estate" shortly before the real estate bubble burst. "Let's go (mall) shopping" shortly before it became significantly more likely that people would shop online. Etc.

Is there evidence of LDS Prophets getting things right with any level of reliability above the rate at which a Magic 8 ball operates? Because they should. As a group, the Brethren should be the most reliable predictors and forecasters on the planet. But they're not. Why?

Very well said. The obvious answer is that there is no Holy Spirit guiding the Brethren. But now we must ask why is that so? And again the obvious answer is that the Brethren embrace the natural man. They embrace the world and not their spirit. One can not discern the things of God and be a natural man.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[_Franktalk]

grindael,

Let me give you an example of when a prophet gives the people their desire. If you go back into the Old Testament starting around Exo 18:6 you will find Jethro talking with Moses. Moses tells him that the people inquire of him daily and wish to enquire of God. It is the pagan Jethro who tells Moses to makes leaders among the people. Now Moses goes about to make leaders but does not stop there, he also makes priests. He makes one person above another in matters of God just like he did with leaders of administration. If you read this he tells the people that God has told him to make these things. But it came from Jethro.

Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

God does not make a chosen people. That is a desire of men to be chosen. The elders of Israel wanted this and Moses gave it to them. Most people who read the Bible know that God does not make a chosen people. But they just can't seem to disagree with what Moses said. That is because they also want to be chosen. Drop your own desires and it becomes clear that Moses was not speaking the things of God but was speaking the desires of men.