"Powers of Discernment" and the Temple

[_Franktalk]

Oh really? People who do "serious study" aren't afraid to be challenged and questioned. You throw a lot of stuff out there just on your say so on subjects that have been controversial for CENTURIES and you think you've got the all knowing answer wrapped up in your head and we should just KNOW that EVERYTHING YOU SAY is TRUE.

No.

I fail to see how mocking is issuing a challenge or questioning. You seem to have your set of canned responses all prepared. This response of yours is just one of them. I do not expect anyone to accept what I say. I lay out my beliefs and if someone finds it interesting I am happy to answer questions. I will say that my expectations are more inline with what you and Chap post. Human nature being what it is.

[_Chap]

...
I have to wonder what it is that drives you to respond to issues on this board. It surely is not a serious consideration of the scriptures.

Oh I certainly do consider them seriously. Very seriously. And I know the Judeo-Christian scriptures quite well. But I just don't consider them the way you do.

You mock ancient texts as having no value.

Did I say they have no value? On the contrary, they tell us a great deal. Just not what you think they tell us.

You mock people who actually do a serious study...

Nope. It's just that I don't think your kind of study deserves to be taken at all seriously.

[_Maksutov]

Oh really? People who do "serious study" aren't afraid to be challenged and questioned. You throw a lot of stuff out there just on your say so on subjects that have been controversial for CENTURIES and you think you've got the all knowing answer wrapped up in your head and we should just KNOW that EVERYTHING YOU SAY is TRUE.

No.

I fail to see how mocking is issuing a challenge or questioning. You seem to have your set of canned responses all prepared. This response of yours is just one of them. I do not expect anyone to accept what I say. I lay out my beliefs and if someone finds it interesting I am happy to answer questions. I will say that my expectations are more inline with what you and Chap post. Human nature being what it is.

Good. So you can handle challenges to your views. We'll see how you do. Show us that the "gift of discernment" exists and then show us that it works the way that you say it does. Yeah, and don't quote us a bunch of scripture that nobody can agree on the meaning of. That descends into endless circular arguments over unfalsifiable issues where we might as well be arguing the Torah or the Dhammapada.

[_Maksutov]

You just seem to make it up as you go along.

^ This.

Joseph said the next prophet would be Hyrum. He knew Hyrum would die. He was telling the church they would not have another prophet.

Wow, reality has no bounds or constraints with this approach.

It isn't a bug, it's a feature.

The sobering thing here is, if the Brethren had had the discernment of an anti-Mormon (Jerald Tanner), church members Kathy Sheets and Steve Christensen might still be alive. So these aren't just apologetic disputes--they end up affecting real people.

[_Franktalk]

Good. So you can handle challenges to your views. We'll see how you do. Show us that the "gift of discernment" exists and then show us that it works the way that you say it does. Yeah, and don't quote us a bunch of scripture that nobody can agree on the meaning of. That descends into endless circular arguments over unfalsifiable issues where we might as well be arguing the Torah or the Dhammapada.

Oh so you want proof. And not just any proof, you want proof that a natural man would consider proof. I am sorry but I can't help you. The world and our bodies are not designed to provide proof or evidence. So please reject everything I say. It just does not matter. The only one who judges us when we die is ourselves. There is no hell, there is no punishment. There is only regrets of what could have been. But that is short lived. We come back again and live another life. Who knows maybe in the next life you are the one who figures out scriptures.

[_Franktalk]

Oh I certainly do consider them seriously. Very seriously. And I know the Judeo-Christian scriptures quite well. But I just don't consider them the way you do.

That is an opinion I do not share.

[_Chap]

... The world and our bodies are not designed to provide proof or evidence. So please reject everything I say. It just does not matter.

It's not so much a matter of rejecting, but of wondering why you think anybody might profit from reading and adopting your opinions on the weighty matters about which you habitually offer us information.

Presumably you are not just sitting in front of your computer saying to yourself "What kind of portentously mystical stuff can I make up today ... oh yeah, that'll do ... hit the 'Submit' button'. So you must have some reason for thinking that the things you write are, on the whole, likely to be true.

What is that reason?

Further, I think it very, very unlikely that you make the important practical decisions of everyday life - such as which used car to choose, or where to invest your retirement funds - without looking at all the evidence you can gather and evaluating it as carefully as you can. I bet you don't just walk up to the sales lot saying "The world and our bodies are not designed to provide proof or evidence" - no, you look to see if there is rust under the chassis, you check on social media to see if that particular dealer is suspected of winding back the mileage on his vehicles, and so on.

Our eternal destiny, if we have one (personally I don't think we have) would be infinitely more important than a used car. You tell us, very confidently:

The only one who judges us when we die is ourselves. There is no hell, there is no punishment.

But if you are wrong about that, and Jack Chick is right, we are in for big, big trouble:



So again, how do you know you are right?

[_grindael]

grindael,

Let me give you an example of when a prophet gives the people their desire. If you go back into the Old Testament starting around Exo 18:6 you will find Jethro talking with Moses. Moses tells him that the people inquire of him daily and wish to enquire of God. It is the pagan Jethro who tells Moses to makes leaders among the people. Now Moses goes about to make leaders but does not stop there, he also makes priests. He makes one person above another in matters of God just like he did with leaders of administration. If you read this he tells the people that God has told him to make these things. But it came from Jethro.

Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

God does not make a chosen people. That is a desire of men to be chosen. The elders of Israel wanted this and Moses gave it to them. Most people who read the Bible know that God does not make a chosen people. But they just can't seem to disagree with what Moses said. That is because they also want to be chosen. Drop your own desires and it becomes clear that Moses was not speaking the things of God but was speaking the desires of men.

Thought this was about Joseph Smith and the MODERN "restoration" and DISCERNMENT. This ^^^^ is bogus BS. There is no comparison here. You simply make crap up as you go along.

[_Franktalk]

grindael,

Discernment comes in many forms. Jesus said we can see patterns and predict the weather but we have a hard time seeing clearly to discern other truths or human characteristics. That is because we fail to use the tools necessary to discern truth.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Would you say a natural man embraces the physical world? Would you say that a natural man embraces the conclusions of science and current theories of how things work? I would say that a vast majority of the people on the world could be called a natural man or woman. This would mean that a vast majority of the world would not have a clue how to discern the things of God.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

In this verse I believe the word life refers to living in truth and casting off the lie. Those who do not cast off the world live in unbelief. Unbelief is anything that is outside of actual reality. Since I believe in a greater reality then this earth and the physical universe exist but offers up the lie. Something for us to stumble on. A yoke of our own choosing.

Mar_4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Joh_1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Christ gave us many clues about who would have discernment and who would not. It seems that those who embrace this world would not have discernment. Now you can ignore what Christ said, many do. I happened to believe Him. So I set about to cast off this world. I let go of everything I thought I knew. Then slowly over a few years ideas came out of the scriptures to me. I am not special and everyone can do this. You must be sincere and desire truth, no matter how strange it may seem.

Mat_11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Here Christ gives us another clue. He says He is meek and lowly of heart. In my opinion He could discern quite well. But the world is filled with people who have a puffed up heart filled with worldly desires. The world is also filled with people who have embraced their ego which is the natural man. Our soul can be pushed aside by the natural man. If that happens Jesus tells us that soul will not find rest. Instead the ego may find rest. But if the ego is happy with itself then there will be no discernment.

[_Chap]

Which amounts to 'Trust me, I know. And I know I know.'

And this guy warns us about following our egos?