Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

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Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _grindael »

Mormon Apologist David Sloan, (Maxwell Institute) in trying to prove that Joseph could not translate the characters on the plates until Martin Harris came back from his trip to New York (thereby fulfilling Joseph’s reworked Isaiah prophecy found in 2 Nephi Chapter 27) states:

Joseph’s parents also believed that their son could not at first translate the characters and understood that one reason for sending Martin Harris to New York City was to obtain help with the translation. In 1830, Joseph Smith Sr. was reported as saying that “his son, “not being able to read the characters, made a copy of some of them, which he showed to some of the most learned men of the vicinity.” The Prophet’s mother also recorded that during this time, “Joseph was very solicitous about the work but as yet no means had come into his hands of accomplishing it”—this despite the fact that he possessed the Urim and Thummim. https://journals.lib.BYU.edu/spc/index. ... clnk&gl=us

This is totally misreading what Lucy reports. Before Joseph told his mother that he was “instructed” to copy the characters to “send them to all the learned men that he could find and ask them for a translation,” he knew that he would be able to translate the plates. When Joseph returned from the hill with Emma on the night of September 27, 1827 Lucy wrote that,

“I trembled so much with fear lest all might be lost agin by some small failure in keeping the commandments that I was under the necessity of l[e]aving the room to conceal my feelings[.] Joseph saw this and followed me[.] Mother[,] said he[,] do not be uneasy all is right here said he I have got the key[.]

I knew not what he meant but took the article in my hands and upon examining it (with no covering but a silk handkerchief)[,] found that it consisted of 2 sm<ooth> <3cornered diamonds set in glass and the glass was set in silver bows> stones connected with each other in the same way that old fashioned spectacles are made[.]” (Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 1, p. 329.)


That key, according to Joseph Knight was the “spectacles” through which Joseph could see anything, and to which Lucy later adds,

“The thing which [I] spoke of that Joseph termed a Key was indeed nothing more nor less than the urim and Thummim by which the angel manifested those things to <him> that were shown him in vision by which also he could at any time ascertain the approach of danger either to himself or the record and for this cause he kept these thing<s> constantly about his person[.]” (ibid, page 339)


It is unlikely that Joseph kept the over large spectacles about his person at all times, so Lucy must have been referring to Joseph’s peep stone. If Joseph could “see anything”, even the “past, present, and future” then surely he knew that he would be able to translate the record with his “key”. What need then, to study it out in his mind? He could see anything! This may be the reason why Joseph abandoned his earlier History and wrote that after he was,

“enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pensylvania, and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters of all the plates. I copyed a considerable number of them and by means of the Urim and Thummin I translated some of them which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife’s father in the month of December [1827], and the February following. Sometime in this month of February the aforementioned Mr Martin Harris came to our place, got the characters which I had drawn off of the plates and started with them to the City of New York.” (Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, Volume I, p. 70).


Joseph’s “revelation” to Oliver Cowdery about studying it out in his mind first, makes little sense. Here is the “revelation” that Joseph claimed to have received after Oliver failed in his attempt to “translate”:

1 Behold, I say unto you, my son, that because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me, and did commence again to write for my servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., even so I would that ye should continue until you have finished this record, which I have entrusted unto him.

2 And then, behold, other records have I, that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate.

3 Be patient, my son, for it is wisdom in me, and it is not expedient that you should translate at this present time.

4 Behold, the work which you are called to do is to write for my servant Joseph.

5 And, behold, it is because that you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate, that I have taken away this privilege from you.

6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

10 Now, if you had known this you could have translated; nevertheless, it is not expedient that you should translate now.

11 Behold, it was expedient when you commenced; but you feared, and the time is past, and it is not expedient now;

12 For, do you not behold that I have given unto my servant Joseph sufficient strength, whereby it is made up? And neither of you have I condemned.

13 Do this thing which I have commanded you, and you shall prosper. Be faithful, and yield to no temptation.

14 Stand fast in the work wherewith I have called you, and a hair of your head shall not be lost, and you shall be lifted up at the last day. Amen. (Doctrine and Covenants, Secion 9:1-14).


How do you study out in your mind and come to a translation, of which you then must ask God “is this translation I came up with right or wrong”; when you cannot read the hieroglyphics in front of you? How would you make any kind of translation? Isn’t the whole idea of the “interpreters” to translate the language into another language you can understand by God’s power? Don Bradley writes:

The most specific translation accounts states that Smith would see, on “something like parchment,” a “Reformed Egyptian” character from the plates and below it the English rendering. A single character would render sometimes just a word or two in English and sometimes several words, with Joseph apparently dictating on average about twenty to thirty words at a time. (“Written by the Finger of God?: Claims and Controversies of Book of Mormon Translation”, Sunstone, online here).


He also writes:

“When using the seer stone, Smith did not directly consult the plates, which sometimes lay nearby concealed in a cloth and at other times were hidden in a remote location, such as the woods.” (ibid).


How could Joseph study out in his mind the characters on the plates when the plates were not even in front of him? If he only needed the stone, why not leave the plates in the ground? He could have then, later, taken the witnesses to see them. According to the Book of Mormon, God would have protected them by making them “slippery”. (Mormon 1:18) All that trouble that Smith supposedly had with the moneydiggers trying to steal the plates would never have happened.

Why go through all the trouble if he really didn’t need them? So the question then becomes, what was there to study out in your mind? Don Bradley tried to tackle this problem in his article quoted above and wrote:

“The revelation [D&C 9] prescribes a process of “studying out” the scriptural text in one’s mind and confirming it through a “burning in the bosom” or disconfirming it through “a stupor of thought” (D&C 9:8–9). A potential objection to the argument from D&C 9 is that the revelation prescribes this process for one translating by “the spirit of revelation,” like Oliver, not for one translating by the gift of seeing, like Joseph (D&C 8:1–4). Thus, on the logic of this objection, because Oliver was not a seer and therefore unable to translate by the seer’s gift, his mode of translation would be nonvisual. But the revelation does not necessarily indicate that Joseph Smith would have translated in this same manner. Instead, D&C 9 can be understood as suggesting that the method of translation was tailored to the gifts of the translator, a concept consistent with Book of Mormon teaching on spiritual gifts (such as Moroni 10:8: “there are different ways that these gifts are administered”). By this logic, Joseph’s translation of the Book of Mormon, made in his capacity as a seer employing the spectacles or seer stone, would have capitalized on his gift of second sight.” (Bradley, option cited above).


There are all kinds of problems with this logic. If it were true that each person would have a different method of translating, then why prepare spectacles to translate the plates in the first place? Especially when God would have known that Joseph already had his own peepstone, which he ultimately used to “translate” the plates!

And if “seeing” is simply a spiritual gift, then what is the problem? Why then, would Oliver have failed if it was just a matter of non-visual “revelation”? Are the current apostles of the church screened in their use of seer stones before they are set apart as “prophets, seers and revelators” for the church?

Why then, would Joseph let Oliver try and translate in the first place and then have a “revelation” that it was because he didn’t study it out in his mind that he couldn’t perform? Why not just tell him that he wasn’t a “seer” and that was why he failed? Why not show Cowdery how it was done and explain the process before instead of after he tried?

The problem is that to translate something from what you don’t know to something you know has no criteria which one can apply to the “study it out in your mind” method. How can you study out strange characters you have never seen before? This whole train of thought is ludicrous.

Even in the revelation itself it states that God wanted Oliver to know that, “other records have I, that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate.”(verse 2) Here it states that it is up to God to “give unto you power.” What then, was Cowdery to study out in his mind? Was he to just guess, until he got it right and then God would confirm his guess? What, exactly was Cowdery to write, to have it confirmed by bosom burning? Where was he to come up with it, if God didn't first give it to him when he asked?

It also says that God “took this privilege away” from Cowdery. (verse 5) So he must have been able to translate, right? He was also told that if he only “knew” that he should have studied it out in his mind, that all would have been just fine. (verse 10) "If you had known this you could have translated.” Why would God (or Joseph for that matter) not inform Cowdery of this before hand? It's almost as if Cowdery was set up to fail...

Then, the “revelation” blames it on Cowdery’s “fear”. (verse 11). “It was expedient” for Cowdery to translate, but he wasn’t informed on how to do it, so he “feared” and then it was not “expedient” for Cowdery to translate.

This “revelation” raises far more questions than it answers.
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Re: Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _Most High »

I think D&C 8 and 9 gives a great insight into the way Joseph Smith jr's mind worked, and how he worked others by "revelations".

Chapter 8:

1 Oliver Cowdery, verily, verily, I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith (High grade "God" promise.. Here "God" tells Oliver to ASK, and he shall recieve), with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which has been spoken by the manifestation of my Spirit (similar to Moronis promise).

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

4 Therefore this is thy gift; apply unto it, and blessed art thou, for it shall deliver you out of the hands of your enemies, when, if it were not so, they would slay you and bring your soul to destruction.

5 Oh, remember these words, and keep my commandments. Remember, this is your gift.

6 Now this is not all thy gift; for you have another gift, which is the gift of Aaron; behold, it has told you many things;

7 Behold, there is no other power, save the power of God, that can cause this gift of Aaron to be with you.

8 Therefore, doubt not, for it is the gift of God; and you shall hold it in your hands, and do marvelous works; and no power shall be able to take it away out of your hands, for it is the work of God.

9 And, therefore, whatsoever you shall ask me to tell you by that means, that will I grant unto you, (And again God repeats, whatever you ASK, using the rod of Aron, he will give to Oliver) and you shall have knowledge concerning it.

10 Remember that without faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith. Trifle not with these things; do not ask for that which you ought not.

11 Ask that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate and receive knowledge from all those ancient records which have been hid up, that are sacred; and according to your faith shall it be done unto you (Third time "God" repeats that Oliver needs to ASK).

12 Behold, it is I that have spoken it; and I am the same that spake unto you from the beginning. Amen.


Chapter 9:

1 Behold, I say unto you, my son, that because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me (So Oliver didn't translate..?), and did commence again to write for my servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., even so I would that ye should continue until you have finished this record, which I have entrusted unto him.

2 And then, behold, other records have I, that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate (Promise of other records to translate later..).

3 Be patient, my son, for it is wisdom in me, and it is not expedient that you should translate at this present time (God apparently goes back on all his promises and words in the previous revelation).

4 Behold, the work which you are called to do is to write for my servant Joseph.

5 And, behold, it is because that you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate (so Oliver was initially sucsessful when translating?), that I have taken away this privilege from you.

6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me (Like God told Oliver 3 times in the previous revelation..).

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind (Soo.. let me get this straight.. Oliver wasn't allowed to look at the plates at this time (witness time came later), so he couldn't even stare at gibberish characters and try to imagine what they meant.. He probably sat in a chair with his "Rod of Aron" and made a go at continuing the legacy of the Nephites.. He probably got off a few "it came to pass'es" before his imagination stopped), ; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

10 Now, if you had known this you could have translated (so why didn't you tell him in the previous revelation where you said all he needed to do was ask??) ; nevertheless, it is not expedient that you should translate now.

11 Behold, it was expedient when you commenced; but you feared, and the time is past, and it is not expedient now;

12 For, do you not behold that I have given unto my servant Joseph sufficient strength, whereby it is made up (slip of thought confession?)? And neither of you have I condemned.

13 Do this thing which I have commanded you, and you shall prosper. Be faithful, and yield to no temptation.

14 Stand fast in the work wherewith I have called you, and a hair of your head shall not be lost, and you shall be lifted up at the last day. Amen.


------------------------------------------------------

In these two chapters I think we get a glimpse into Josephs mind. Not only by the way he is manipulating Oliver, but also in regards to how his "inspiration/revelation" works.

Joseph Smith Jr is a master copycat in my opinion. Whenever he comes across ideas, he contemplates, absorbs, and develops his own theology based on the "inspiration". I think that he thought things out in his mind, and had strong emotions related to this, and believed that this was revelation from God. Inspirations from sources like the Bible, books he read, newspapers, gold digger friends, Joshua Seixas, Sidney Rigdon, the Masons etc.

"Line upon line and precept upon precept" perfectly fits a brilliant copycat doing make-up-as-we-go-along religion.

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Re: Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _fetchface »

grindael wrote:It's almost as if Cowdery was set up to fail...

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Re: Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

DUH? :rolleyes:

Oliver was not a Prophet'able!
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Re: Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Great post. I wonder how our friends over at the Interpreter would answer you, especially the one who just wrote about this very subject?
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Re: Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _ludwigm »

fetchface wrote:
grindael wrote:It's almost as if Cowdery was set up to fail...
God hits us because he loves us.

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Re: Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _grindael »

This footnote from the Interpreter is interesting:

4. Roberts saw support for this interpretation in D&C 8:2, where the Lord describes the manifestations of the Holy Ghost: “Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

Now, here is what Joseph taught in 1843:

"The Holy Ghost is a personage, and a person cannot have the personage of the H. G. in his heart. A man receive the gifts of the H. G., and the H. G. may descend upon a man but not to tarry with him. Clayton Diary, April 2, 1843.

again reverted to Elders Hyde mistake. &c. the Father has a body of flesh & bones as tangible as mans the Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit.--and a person cannot have the personage of the H G in his heart he may receive the gift of the holy Ghost. it may descend upon him but not to tarry with him,-- Joseph Smith Diary, same date.

again reverted to Elders Hyde mistake. &c. the Father has a body of flesh & bones as tangible as mans the Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. --and a person cannot have the personage of the H G in his heart he may receive the gift of the holy Ghost. it may descend upon him but not to tarry with him,-- Willard Richards Diary, same date

Interesting conundrum, huh? The Holy Ghost CANNOT "dwell" in a man's heart. So Smith contradicted himself. No surprise there.

Orson Pratt changed this for Section 130 of the D&C:

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.
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Re: Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _Nightlion »

The purpose of studying it out in your mind is so that there is an actual substantive need in place for the Spirit to respond to.
Rather than just a blank stare with an empty desire having no desire or fixation upon a subject what is the Holy Ghost suppose to do all the heavy lifting. It is much like, forgive please, my work on The Apocalrock. I am drawn to a spot and know enough to take the picture. Then I have to muse over it and yearn to see what 'might' be there without any preconceived notions, like making up my own text for Joseph. The Apocalrock reveals complex composition and once there is sufficient earnest on my part it manifests.

Like with the Isaiah sighting that kept my fixed attention for months as I hung it up before my eyes for a long time. Ask Juggler Vain about that. Then the composition revealed all in one moment in great complexity.

Joseph learned how to set his intent correctly so as to get a response from his gifts. Oliver had no clue and was not given the keys that actually make the wheels turn. He might have if he had utilized his faith differently.
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Re: Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _fetchface »

I think this whole episode (along with others) is a fascinating window into how Joseph would manipulate others through their supernatural beliefs.
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Re: Why couldn't Oliver Translate like Joseph did?

Post by _grindael »

CROCK wrote:The purpose of studying it out in your mind is so that there is an actual substantive need in place for the Spirit to respond to.
Rather than just a blank stare with an empty desire having no desire or fixation upon a subject what is the Holy Ghost suppose to do all the heavy lifting. It is much like, forgive please, my work on The Apocalrock. I am drawn to a spot and know enough to take the picture. Then I have to muse over it and yearn to see what 'might' be there without any preconceived notions, like making up my own text for Joseph. The Apocalrock reveals complex composition and once there is sufficient earnest on my part it manifests.

Like with the Isaiah sighting that kept my fixed attention for months as I hung it up before my eyes for a long time. Ask Juggler Vain about that. Then the composition revealed all in one moment in great complexity.

Joseph learned how to set his intent correctly so as to get a response from his gifts. Oliver had no clue and was not given the keys that actually make the wheels turn. He might have if he had utilized his faith differently.


This is not about the Apocalcrock. Jesus, you are like a broken record.
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