Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of Nahom

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_ldsfaqs
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _ldsfaqs »

LOL.... :rolleyes:
Other people have done their own work, in Arabia itself to see what is and isn't.
They don't just "believe" someone else's work.

And that's another thing that debunks you're all's "guilt by association" slandering.
I.E. that simply because Aston does UFO work that that just "must" invalidate his LDS scholarship.

Well guess what.... All other LDS scholar's which have done their OWN work in various degree's on Arabia DO NOT do "crazy" work on other things such as UFO's, so what "invalidates" their work? Oh, they are religious and Mormon. And around and around the anti-Mormon goes. Circular logic.
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _Lemmie »

ldsfaqs wrote:LOL.... :rolleyes:
Other people have done their own work, in Arabia itself to see what is and isn't.
They don't just "believe" someone else's work.

That is a great description of drW's contribution to this thread!
DrW wrote:As described here before, I have spent years in Saudi Arabia, Oman and the UAE, and have worked along, and traveled, the southeast coast of the Arabian Peninsula from Khor Fakkan to Salalah, and beyond, hiking in any number of the wadis along the way.

Thank you, DrW, your first hand experience is invaluable to understanding this issue, and fascinating to hear about.
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _Tator »

ldsfaqs wrote:LOL.... :rolleyes:
Other people have done their own work, in Arabia itself to see what is and isn't.
They don't just "believe" someone else's work.



faqs, have you done your own work in Arabia? Or are you just "believing" someone else's work?

Maybe you could get your ward welfare department to send you on the $3995.00 tour.
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _Darth J »

ldsfaqs wrote:LOL.... :rolleyes:
Other people have done their own work, in Arabia itself to see what is and isn't.
They don't just "believe" someone else's work.


Oh, so you mean other hobby apologists have also gone to look at places indicated by Warren Aston in order to confirm their a priori religious beliefs.

And that's another thing that debunks you're all's "guilt by association" slandering.
I.E. that simply because Aston does UFO work that that just "must" invalidate his LDS scholarship.


If that's guilt by association slandering, then your complaint is with all those faith-promoting sources in the OP. They're the ones who carefully omitted his UFO bona fides.

Well guess what.... All other LDS scholar's which have done their OWN work in various degree's on Arabia DO NOT do "crazy" work on other things such as UFO's, so what "invalidates" their work? Oh, they are religious and Mormon. And around and around the anti-Mormon goes. Circular logic.


What invalidates their work is the absence of any indicia that they conform to legitimate archaeology.

You are having a hard time recognizing the fundamental issue, so I'll just tell you: there's no demarcation in standards or methodology between ufology and Mopologetics. They're both crank pseudo-fields. When you can explain why Nephites but not space lizards, then you'll have something. Note that I'm talking about this as an area of study, not merely a cherished belief in Nephites and/or extraterrestrial visitors.
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _Tator »

Lemmie wrote:Thank you, DrW, your first hand experience is invaluable to understanding this issue, and fascinating to hear about.



Lemmie, DrW deserves that thank you. He has made past contributions in many great threads like the shipbuilding thread and others. One of those threads went for 70-80 pages if I remember correctly.
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _Darth J »

ldsfaqs wrote:LOL.... :rolleyes:
Other people have done their own work, in Arabia itself to see what is and isn't.
They don't just "believe" someone else's work.


I would like to more specifically add that these people obviously just believe someone else's work, or they wouldn't be investigating claims of historical Nephites in the first place. That someone else is Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon has no provenance whatsoever outside of Joseph Smith's story. If you didn't a priori just believe that story, you would no more try to trace Lehi's journey than you would try to trace Bilbo Baggins' journey.
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _DrW »

ldsfaqs wrote:DrW....

You are really ignorant.....
Every single one of your statements have been proven false with several scholar's and researchers works, one of the latest being "Lehi in the Wilderness..." by Potter and Wellington. I have the book myself, and every single one of your statements that you claim "don't exist" DO in fact exist, AND exist exactly where they should according to the Book of Mormon account. Make sure you get the Lehi's Trail DVD videos also, so you can SEE that you're a liar. http://nephiproject.com/

- Yes there exists the fruit, game, honey exactly where it should.
- Yes there is a LONG section of coast for ship launching with ALL the necessary materials for ship builing
- Yes ship building DID occur in those areas in Lehi's time
- Yes, there's is even STILL plenty of timber for ship building
- YES, there's also cliffs.

You are an utter liar..... Evidence from archaeologists and historians regarding ship building practices and materials in the area, as well as current photographic evidence (including satellite imagery) from these wadis, directly PROVE Aston's and other's claims, a.k.a. the Book of Mormon claims.

Further.... Aston while basically the first to research this stuff, others have further researched it, such as the book above.
So, it's ALL TRUE..... It's utterly fascinating to me how even in the face of actual archeology, physical proof, the liberal/anti-mormon STILL LIES and remains blind.

LDS FACTless,

One wonders if you have paying attention when it comes to this subject. Referring to similar bogus claims regarding shipbuilding in Oman in ancient times, I posted the following back in February.
DrW wrote:
This is just plain nonsense.

The scientific consensus on this issue is clear. There are not now, nor have there ever been, the raw materials needed to build an ocean going vessel along, or anywhere near, the coast of Oman (and I am talking about the entire length of the coast of Oman, from Khor Fakkan in the UAE to Yemeni border and beyond).

Construction of coastal dhows, now carried out mainly in Sur in Oman and Abu Dhabi in the UAE, requires the import of wood, fiber and fabric for keels, hulls, sails and rigging. These materials come mainly from India, and have since the coastal dhows (which originated in India, by the way) appeared during the third millennium BCE.

Moreover, the lateen rigged dhow is pretty much the only design for a locally made ocean going vessel constructed of wood to be found in the region in recorded history. As mentioned on this board before, dhows are not suitable for open ocean sailing - far from it. They are coastal trading vessels only.

Finally, it is not as if no one in modern times has explored and carried out archaeological studies in Oman. The place has been studied by petroleum companies in some detail. There are good maps and geological data for the coast and most of the rest of the country (with the possible exception of the portion of the Empty Quarter (Rub' Al Khali) that extends into Oman).

These folks are delusional. Can't wait to see how they spin the fact that they found nothing whatsoever to indicate that an ocean going vessel was, or could have ever been, built there from locally sourced materials.

There are any number of historical references regarding the fact that the Arabic dhow originated in India and that Arabic coastal traders, especially the Omanis, generally acquired their dhows from India. The boat building industries that developed later in Sur in Oman and in Abu Dhabi in the UAE depended (and depend today) entirely of imported materials. http://www.uaeinteract.com/history/trad/trd02.asp
Teak (saj) for planking and for the keel, stem, stern and masts of the larger boats was traditionally imported from India; mit for the naturally grown crooks used to form ribs and knees from India, Somalia, Iran, and Iraq; rope from Zanzibar and the sail canvas came from Bahrain or Kuwait, although some was made locally. Mango was also imported from India to construct the smaller boats and dugouts (huri). Only the shashah, built usually by its user, was made entirely from the local date palm.


DrW wrote:Arguing that the NHM inscription is evidence for the authenticity of the Old World events described in the Book of Mormon has the effect of narrowing down the Nephite ship building site and departure point to somewhere along the southern coast of modern day Oman or Yemen. For all practical purposes, it also pretty much limits the design and sail plan of the ship to that of a dhow.

The problem is that in 600 BCE, as now, it was (and is) not possible to build dhows, or any other ocean going craft, with materials available along, or anywhere near, the coast of Oman or Yemen, or the UAE, for that matter.

As noted before on this board, people who lived on the Arabian peninsula anciently procured their dhows from the Kerala region of India. In fact, historians place the development of the dhow in India around 600 BCE.

While traditional dhows are now built in Oman and the UAE, the materials for these craft must be imported, and much of it still comes from India.

Also as noted previously (and shown below), the dhow is a lateen-rigged sailing vessel.

Image

These things are fine as coastal cargo vessels. However, as has been shown by modern sea trials of these craft, as traditionally built, they are not capable of open ocean sailing, and certainly not capable of transoceanic passages.

As to the wadis themselves, images the advocates have provided of their favorite candidates are not very convincing, even when taken from the most favorable angles possible and cropped to perfection.

I too have photographs of the Omani wadis - lots of 'em. I also have images of the coastal plain and mountains, and after seeing how this 'building a boat in a wadi' fairy tale continues to propagate among the faithful, I plan to put on display a bit of Omani ground truth, and show folks what these wadis and surrounding areas really look like when the camera is not pointed in the most Mormonistic direction possible.
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _DrW »

The following excellent post on the subject of Aston's "Bountiful" was contributed by Nevo, who counts himself among the faithful. I trust he will not mind it being re-posted here for the benefit of ldsfaqs.

Nevo wrote:Here is something I wrote on the other board last week:

I found it interesting that the Proctors call Khor Kharfot "not just the most, but probably the only viable candidate for Nephi’s Bountiful." If Khor Kharfot/Wadi Sayq is the last best hope for Nephi's Bountiful, that's not good news. Aside from the aforementioned lack of iron ore noted by BYU geologist Walmart. Revell Phillips, the site's indigenous trees are unsuitable for building ocean-going ships. According to BYU archaeobotanist Terry B. Ball:

Quote:
"The largest tree of Dhofar, the Vast Fig (Ficus vasta), along with the other large indigenous fig taxa, F. sycomorus, F. cordata salicifolia, and F. lutea, all produce a wood that is too soft, heavy, and porous to withstand the rigors of a transoceanic crossing, though the wood is suitable and has been used in the Dhofar region for building ship infrastructure not exposed to the elements. There are a few Acaia taxa that produce a harder wood, such as Acaia nilotica, A. senegal, A. etbaica, and A. latea, but only A. nilotica and A. senegal reach any appreciable size, and they, like their smaller relatives, produce a wood that is too branched and gnarled for large raft logs or ship planks and timbers. The branches of some Acacia taxa could and have been used, however, for building ship ribs and infrastructures. Other large Dhofar taxa are equally as unsuitable for the task of providing planking for ships or logs for a large raft. The very rare Baobab (Adansonia digitata) produces a wood far too soft for the task. The endemic Anogeissus dhofarica is too branched and small to be of use as is the Christ-thorn (Ziziphus spina-christi) and the legume Delonix elata. The Tamarind (Tamarindus indica) is a larger tree that produces a better grade of wood than most of the above, but it is a native of tropical Africa that may not have been introduced until after Lehi’s family left the area. Moreover, while Tamarind wood is prized for tool- and cabinet making, it has not historically been used for shipbuilding. In the words of maritime historian Dionisius A. Agius, "Timber for shipbuilding was always lacking in the Arabian/Persian Gulf and shipwrights had to look for good wood to build larger vessels." Another maritime historian, George Faldo Hourani, echoes Agius’s opinions, "Arabia does not and never did produce wood suitable for building strong seagoing ships."

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscre ... 16&index=7

Phillips concurs with Ball's assessment: "No trees grow in Oman that could provide suitable planking for Nephi’s ship, either today or probably in the past" (http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscre ... 17&index=7).

Moreover, George Potter, Frank Linehan, and Conrad Dickson—experienced sailors all—have noted that "Khor Kharfot is presently closed off by a sandbar. There is no documented evidence that the Khor was open to the sea in Nephi's time, but if it were, it is very narrow and the floor is strewn with huge boulders that would have posed considerable risk to anything other than small, shallow draft vessels attempting to use it" (in Voyages of the Book of Mormon [Springville, UT: CFI, 2011], 53). However, Warren P. Aston, the discoverer and main booster of Khor Kharfot, claims that the inlet's "width of a hundred or so feet is surely adequate to maneuver a ship"—or at least a raft (see Warren P. Aston, "Identifying Our Best Candidate for Nephi's Bountiful," Journal of the Book of Mormon and Restoration Scripture 17, no. 1–2 [2008]: 61).

Then there's the small problem of the wadi being virtually impassable from the west—the direction that Lehi's party was coming from. As Phillips has observed, "the area surrounding Wadi Sayq is heavily wooded with brush, which is dry most of the year and endowed with uninviting thorns. Wadi Sayq today is a narrow canyon for most of its length and is clogged with huge boulders and unfriendly vegetation, making it almost impossible for anyone to bring a caravan down the wadi." And this goes on for some 16 miles! The Proctors implicitly acknowledge the site's inaccessibility in one of their photos depicting a research team arriving by boat. Here is Phillips again: "The only real access to Wadi Sayq is from the sea, and even that access is denied almost half of each year when the sea is too violent for small boats to come ashore. However, Wadi Sayq is a charming, pristine site to bring Latter-day Saint tourists, as the high breakers and surf and the 'wet' landing on an isolated beach is about the right amount of danger and adventure to challenge the modern tourist." For his part, Aston insists that he has personally made it through the boulders and thorns "several times" and that the "choke-points of accumulated boulders and abundant vegetation do not deter exploration by serious researchers any more than they would have turned away a prophet-led group long ago." (They might, however, have deterred the camels carrying all their stuff.)


By the way, Prof. Ball of BYU is an expert in Omani ecology, and is internationally recognized as such, especially in Oman itself. He is a personable and thoughtful individual who once offered to consult on an EIS we were working on for Duqm Governate (just up the coast from Dhofar).
Last edited by Guest on Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _DrW »

Finally, just for LDSFAQS (who must have forgotten that we went over all of this very thoroughly back February), and more importantly for any lurkers who may have missed it, here are a couple of images from a hike in a typical Omani coastal wadi cut out of karst limestone.

These images have appeared before on this board and underscore what Nevo posted regarding the difficulties of traveling through, and working in, wadis and especially from the inland end.

Image

Image
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Re: Comparative Biographies of Warren Aston, Discoverer of N

Post by _Gadianton »

Thanks for all the extra information, Dr W. I think this Mopologetic has been demolished.
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