John Dee and the Foundations of Mormonism

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_jj
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Re: John Dee and the Foundations of Mormonism

Post by _jj »

Kishkumen wrote:Kircher's ideas about the hierophantic mystical nature of hieroglyphs was still alive at BYU in the last decade and I would not be surprised if that were true even today.

Th Ibn Nephi stuff I am dying to know more about. Rabbi Nephi had the universal translation key or code key. These are surely divine interpreters.


Anybody ever provide a translation of the Ibn Nephi material in Kircher's work? I can only find the Arabic.
_Kishkumen
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Re: John Dee and the Foundations of Mormonism

Post by _Kishkumen »

jj wrote:Anybody ever provide a translation of the Ibn Nephi material in Kircher's work? I can only find the Arabic.


Now we have homework.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Maksutov
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Re: John Dee and the Foundations of Mormonism

Post by _Maksutov »

Reverend, I recall recently reading online speculation that Dr. Dee may have been involved in the creation, or at least the provenance, of the Voynich manuscript and the Book of Soyga. One wonders how many books and ideas of Christian Kaballah might have been within Joseph's reach. He may have absorbed ideas like Swedenborg's, Kircher, the Ephrata mystics, the communitarianism of the Fourierists, in addition to the sectarian, trinitarian issues that likely arose in the Methodist debating society that he joined. And he continued to grow and change throughout his life.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Kishkumen
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Re: John Dee and the Foundations of Mormonism

Post by _Kishkumen »

Maksutov wrote:Reverend, I recall recently reading online speculation that Dr. Dee may have been involved in the creation, or at least the provenance, of the Voynich manuscript and the Book of Soyga. One wonders how many books and ideas of Christian Kaballah might have been within Joseph's reach. He may have absorbed ideas like Swedenborg's, Kircher, the Ephrata mystics, the communitarianism of the Fourierists, in addition to the sectarian, trinitarian issues that likely arose in the Methodist debating society that he joined. And he continued to grow and change throughout his life.


That's quite a stew, indeed, Mak. Who knows? If one casts a small net or only examines the lighted areas of that parking lot at night, then Procrustean solutions predictably emerge. There are, however, many ways to skin a cat. Moreover, my agenda does not align with the usual assortment. I would like to see Mormonism with different eyes. The usual parameters of the discussion are too constraining. I welcome Prof. Skousen's findings. I welcome the Johnson brothers'. I am intrigued by Margaret Barker's view and Maxine Hanks'. I think it is all interesting to reflect on. None of it particularly interests me in being involved in the LDS Church again, mind you. Talk about constraining! Still, it is fun to consider the currents that potentially contributed to Mormonism's little wave. I think Joe obscures our view in certain ways. Panning out to the broader vista shows us how Mormonism might fit in regardless of the precise identity(-ies?) of the originator/s.

I will admit that these days I like to imagine a group effort behind the Book of Mormon. Is Joe in there? Yes. But are others too? And how might they be? We know the Bible is in there. We know Joe is in there. What and who else? How? Why?
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_jj
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:37 am

Re: John Dee and the Foundations of Mormonism

Post by _jj »

Maksutov wrote:Reverend, I recall recently reading online speculation that Dr. Dee may have been involved in the creation, or at least the provenance, of the Voynich manuscript and the Book of Soyga. One wonders how many books and ideas of Christian Kaballah might have been within Joseph's reach. He may have absorbed ideas like Swedenborg's, Kircher, the Ephrata mystics, the communitarianism of the Fourierists, in addition to the sectarian, trinitarian issues that likely arose in the Methodist debating society that he joined. And he continued to grow and change throughout his life.


I once went down this rabbit hole, thinking that the Voynich Manuscript could be viewed as an analog for a Dee-Kircher shared text, since it was also an encrypted mystical text that has been linked to both Kircher and Dee. If I recall correctly, Kircher came into contact with it twice because people kept returning to him in the hopes that he had a key that could crack it, the Ibn Nephi Key. He was curious enough about the VM that I believe he made an effort to purchase it from one of the owners, who declined to sell it to him. But following the death of that owner Kircher eventually inherited it.

Kircher also made a few comments on the script which I believe he associated with Tironian notae. I'll have to reopen my notes on the VM in the light of this thread.
_Kishkumen
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Re: John Dee and the Foundations of Mormonism

Post by _Kishkumen »

jj wrote:I once went down this rabbit hole, thinking that the Voynich Manuscript could be viewed as an analog for a Dee-Kircher shared text, since it was also an encrypted mystical text that has been linked to both Kircher and Dee. If I recall correctly, Kircher came into contact with it twice because people kept returning to him in the hopes that he had a key that could crack it, the Ibn Nephi Key. He was curious enough about the VM that I believe he made an effort to purchase it from one of the owners, who declined to sell it to him. But following the death of that owner Kircher eventually inherited it.

Kircher also made a few comments on the script which I believe he associated with Tironian notae. I'll have to reopen my notes on the VM in the light of this thread.


Excellent, Prof. JJ! We look forward to reading your thoughts on the Voynich Manuscript and the Book of Mormon. Kircher associated bits of it with Tironian, you say? That could be very significant indeed!

Thank you for sharing your research with us.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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