Authentic Gold Plates found in Java

[_honorentheos]

Weren't the small plates of Nephi just bundled up with the abridgement of Mormon? And if so, would be of the same character and material as the remainder of the plates claimed to have been recovered by Smith? Predating the Nephite discovery of the Jarodite plates? Gold plates seem to be a thing with God, then. Like chiasmus and cultural purity laws.

[_Kishkumen]

Weren't the small plates of Nephi just bundled up with the abridgement of Mormon? And if so, would be of the same character and material as the remainder of the plates claimed to have been recovered by Smith? Predating the Nephite discovery of the Jarodite plates? Gold plates seem to be a thing with God, then. Like chiasmus and cultural purity laws.

This is not entirely clear to me, honor. Nephi tells his reader at the end of 1 Nephi 18 that his people found all manner of ore. Then at the beginning of 19 he says he used ore to make his small plates. Does the text subsequently say the plates of Nephi were gold? Mormon's abridgment was on gold plates, true. Now, I think it is entirely fair to assume the small plates were gold, since the emphasis is placed on the "precious" nature of the things written on them. If you know of an explicit description of them being gold in the Book of Mormon itself, I would appreciate you sharing it with us.

[_Kishkumen]

OK. Mormon 1:4 says the following:

And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that ye have observed concerning this people.

But Mormon 2: 18 says this:

And upon the plates of Nephi I did make a full account of all the wickedness and abominations; but upon these plates I did forbear to make a full account of their wickedness and abominations, for behold, a continual scene of wickedness and abominations has been before mine eyes ever since I have been sufficient to behold the ways of man.

Mormon's set of plates include an abridgment of Nephi's large plates:

And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

And he then takes the small plates and finishes his record on them:

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

So, it looks like you are right. Nephi's plates were gold. The interesting thing is, we know that, don't we, because Joseph described them as such, not because the main narrative of Book of Mormon itself includes a description of the plates as gold?

Edited to add: The title page does not even describe the plates as gold.

[_jj]

Now, I suppose it is possible that there was a stone and 24 gold plates, both of which contained the same thing. It is also possible, however, that Joseph Smith simply forgot what he had earlier dictated or that he had some reason for changing the plates to a stone. There is, however, yet a third possibility, which I like better, and that is that both the 24 (interesting number) gold plates and the stone are to be taken as metaphors or symbols.

I had settled on explanation #2 thinking that the stone was a mistake made by Joseph as he reconstructed the missing Book of Lehi. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the stone is described in Omni (Small Plates) while the 24 gold plates are only in Mormon's abridgment (Mosiah). Moroni opens Ether with an explanation that the account comes from the 24 gold plates.

Ether 1:2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether.

So the stone inscription didn't play much of a role, or rather we have no idea what was written on it.

While the twenty and four pure gold (not tumbaga) plates may be the most under-appreciated prop in Nephite lore: (1) we know very little about them, (2) they were abridged quickly/incompletely by Moroni, (3) the sealed portion (which made up two-thirds of Joseph's Golden Plates) was taken from them.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

All of which were completely unnecessary thanks to Joseph Smith's iStone. Can someone help me understand why the plates are even in the discussion at this point? I must be missing something.

- Doc

[_jj]

So, it looks like you are right. Nephi's plates were gold. The interesting thing is, we know that, don't we, because Joseph described them as such, not because the main narrative of Book of Mormon itself includes a description of the plates as gold?

It raises the question, were the small plates made of different ores? Isn't the dominant apologetic that the plates (on the promised land side) were made of copper, gold and silver (tumbaga) combined? I think Brant Gardner proposed this based on Nephi's comment about finding all three ores just before he mentions making plates.

Would copper, silver and gold have been available to Nephi on the Arabian side? As far as I know, tumbaga is a New World invention.

Its a piddling point, but the small plates wouldn't be consistently "golden". There'd be a difference between the Old World and New World sections.

[_Kishkumen]

So the stone inscription didn't play much of a role, or rather we have no idea what was written on it.

But we do know what it contained:

21 And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.

22 It also spake a few words concerning his fathers. And his first parents came out from the tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people; and the severity of the Lord fell upon them according to his judgments, which are just; and their bones lay scattered in the land northward.

Compare this with Mosiah 28:17:

17 Now after Mosiah had finished translating these records, behold, it gave an account of the people who were destroyed, from the time that they were destroyed back to the building of the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people and they were scattered abroad upon the face of all the earth, yea, and even from that time back until the creation of Adam.

So the difference, it would appear, is that the 24 plates of gold contained an account reaching back as far as Adam, whereas the stone only went to Babel.

[_Kishkumen]

It raises the question, were the small plates made of different ores? Isn't the dominant apologetic that the plates (on the promised land side) were made of copper, gold and silver (tumbaga) combined? I think Brant Gardner proposed this based on Nephi's comment about finding all three ores just before he mentions making plates.

Would copper, silver and gold have been available to Nephi on the Arabian side? As far as I know, tumbaga is a New World invention.

Its a piddling point, but the small plates wouldn't be consistently "golden". There'd be a difference between the Old World and New World sections.

It is quite possible that Brant was right about Nephi's plates being an alloy of gold, silver, and copper. This would be highly interesting in its symbolism. He is probably on the right track because the Jaredite plates are said to be of "pure" gold. Now, it is possible that pure is just being used here as a kind of superlative description. If you want to impress someone, you don't say "gold" but "pure gold." On the other hand, it may be that there is something even more precious in the content of the Jaredite plates than in the Nephite plates: the theophany of the Brother of Jared and his alchemical activities being quite precious indeed. It seems to me that something important is being communicated through these metals, much as it is in the Book of Daniel or in Hesiod's ages. Metals have a hierarchy, and gold is at the top in the archaic versions of that hierarchy. Gold is, regardless, consistently considered to be at the top.

So, the Josephite Old Testament that Laban has consists of brass plates. The Nephite plates are an alloy of gold/silver/copper (indicating the alloyed nature of the account), but the Jaredite plates are "pure gold." And, I would say this works best if the stone and the gold plates are separate records that contain quite different things. The 24 plates go back to Adam, which means that they were conceived as containing the kind of esoteric version of early Biblical history that would later appear in Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible and in the Book of Abraham.

Edited to add: this metal schema in the Book of Mormon would seem to me to combine Freemasonic and alchemical elements. The brass plates allude to the brass pillars Boaz and Jachin on the Temple of Solomon.

This is drawn from Josephus:

Now Solomon sent for an artificer out of Tyre, whose name was Hiram. He was by birth of the tribe of Naphtali, on the mother’s side (for she was of that tribe), but his father was Ur, of the stock of the Israelites. This man was skillful in all sorts of work; but his chief skill lay in working in gold, and silver, and brass, by whom were made all the mechanical works about the temple, according to the will of Solomon. Moreover this Hiram made two hollow pillars, whose outsides were of brass, and the thickness of the brass was four fingers breadth, and the height of the pillars was eighteen cubits, and their circumference twelve cubits; but there was cast, with each of their chapiters, lily-work that stood upon the pillar, and it was elevated five cubits, round about which there was net-work interwoven with small palms made of brass, and covered with lily-work. To this also were hung two hundred pomegranates in two rows. The one of these pillars he set at the entrance of the porch on the right hand, and called it Jachin, and the other at the left hand, and called it Boaz.

It would be very fun if Joseph had envisioned the brass plates being made from the "small palms of brass" mentioned by Josephus in this passage.

[_jj]

Metals have a hierarchy, and gold is at the top in the archaic versions of that hierarchy. Gold is, regardless, consistently considered to be at the top.

Tumbaga and Alchemy

In the Americas, the production of tumbaga was thought to awaken the camay, or living spirit of inanimate objects, which was seen in the form of the gold that appeared to rise to the surface. Tumbaga stood for the sacred and temporal power in both objects and people.

[_Kishkumen]

Metals have a hierarchy, and gold is at the top in the archaic versions of that hierarchy. Gold is, regardless, consistently considered to be at the top.

Tumbaga and Alchemy

In the Americas, the production of tumbaga was thought to awaken the camay, or living spirit of inanimate objects, which was seen in the form of the gold that appeared to rise to the surface. Tumbaga stood for the sacred and temporal power in both objects and people.

Hohohooooo!!!