Authentic Gold Plates found in Java

[_SteelHead]

I think these plates support the lilliputian geography model.

[_Kishkumen]

I think these plates support the lilliputian geography model.

That's the LST, thank you very much.

[Limited Stature Theory]

[_Lemmie]

All of which were completely unnecessary thanks to Joseph Smith's iStone. Can someone help me understand why the plates are even in the discussion at this point? I must be missing something.

- Doc

True about the plates, but sometimes for fun and relaxation I like to speculate about the continuity of Ripley's character across the various Alien movies, and then the cross correlation implied by the Predator sequence of movies and the mixed Alien/Predator version, not to mention the tie-in of Prometheus, the supposed (but pretty unsatisfying) prequel to the Alien series and the coming Prometheus sequel Alien-Covenant, which apparently will be a trilogy starter.

Don't know if the trilogy elements will be pre-, post-, para-, circum-, inter-, or in-quels, however. So much to think about.

Same thing here.

[_Kishkumen]

True about the plates, but sometimes for fun and relaxation I like to speculate about the continuity of Ripley's character across the various Alien movies, and then the cross correlation implied by the Predator sequence of movies and the mixed Alien/Predator version, not to mention the tie-in of Prometheus, the supposed (but pretty unsatisfying) prequel to the Alien series and the coming Prometheus sequel Alien-Covenant, which apparently will be a trilogy starter.

Don't know if the trilogy elements will be pre-, post-, para-, circum-, inter-, or in-quels, however. So much to think about.

Same thing here.

Well, if all one is interested in is the question of the truthfulness of LDS factual claims, and that on a very surface level, then I don't suppose the question of the plates is at all interesting. But I would say that this is more than simple geekery on our part. If one wants to get to the bottom of what is going on with the Book of Mormon and its origins, one has to understand what is in the thing. It takes deeper understanding to get these answers. And in doing this, believers and non-believers have a lot of shared interests, although their ultimate goals are quite different. A believer may want to dig into the genuine holy mysteries of the Book of Mormon, but the same data can be equally illuminating to those who have no spiritual investment in the text. You don't have to be a Mason to be interested in Masonic scholarship.

[_jj]

True about the plates, but sometimes for fun and relaxation I like to speculate.

Its also good to have a few topic-changers like this in the back pocket, to throw down when conversations with the family get uncomfortably TBLDS.

[_jj]

So, the Josephite Old Testament that Laban has consists of brass plates. The Nephite plates are an alloy of gold/silver/copper (indicating the alloyed nature of the account), but the Jaredite plates are "pure gold." And, I would say this works best if the stone and the gold plates are separate records that contain quite different things. The 24 plates go back to Adam, which means that they were conceived as containing the kind of esoteric version of early Biblical history that would later appear in Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible and in the Book of Abraham. Edited to add: this metal schema in the Book of Mormon would seem to me to combine Freemasonic and alchemical elements. The brass plates allude to the brass pillars Boaz and Jachin on the Temple of Solomon.

Not sure if you've ever heard of Jason Colavito, the blogger that debunks alien astronaut and holy grail conspiracies. He also dabbles in masonic lore. Your comment reminded me of an unusual 11th century Arabic text I found on his blog that strikes me as the kind of material the Early Modern English translators might have been familiar with:

Akhbār al-zamān: History of Time

Its long, but well worth the read, particularly the stuff on Hermes and the various lands of iron, copper, silver and gold. Its also has a Jaredite-like account:

A branch of the family of Āmir, son of Japheth, separated and went to China. The leader of this tribe built vessels on the model of the ark of Noah, his grandfather, in which all his family embarked; they crossed the sea, reached China, multiplied, built cities, and there developed the sciences and arts, and exploited its gold mines. This leader reigned three hundred years. After him, his son Sānī reigned two hundred years. It was he who gave its name to China (Ṣin). He enclosed the body of his father in a statue of gold, and the people stood around the image, which was seated on a throne of gold. This practice became a rule for that empire, and the images of kings were placed in the temples. The religion of these people was first Sabianism. They then worshiped the Buddha in imitation of the Indians; later they adored their kings, placing their bodies in golden idols before which they prostrated themselves. Chinese scholars have treated the spheres of medicine, the trades, and various sciences of the Indians.

[_Kishkumen]

Very interesting, jj. I need to check this out. There are definitely similarities between this and the Book of Ether.

[_Lemmie]

True about the plates, but sometimes for fun and relaxation I like to speculate about the continuity of Ripley's character across the various Alien movies, and then the cross correlation implied by the Predator sequence of movies and the mixed Alien/Predator version, not to mention the tie-in of Prometheus, the supposed (but pretty unsatisfying) prequel to the Alien series and the coming Prometheus sequel Alien-Covenant, which apparently will be a trilogy starter.

Don't know if the trilogy elements will be pre-, post-, para-, circum-, inter-, or in-quels, however. So much to think about.

Same thing here.

Well, if all one is interested in is the question of the truthfulness of LDS factual claims, and that on a very surface level, then I don't suppose the question of the plates is at all interesting. But I would say that this is more than simple geekery on our part. If one wants to get to the bottom of what is going on with the Book of Mormon and its origins, one has to understand what is in the thing. It takes deeper understanding to get these answers. And in doing this, believers and non-believers have a lot of shared interests, although their ultimate goals are quite different. A believer may want to dig into the genuine holy mysteries of the Book of Mormon, but the same data can be equally illuminating to those who have no spiritual investment in the text. You don't have to be a Mason to be interested in Masonic scholarship.

That's an interesting point, that a surface level trust in lds claims may render digging into the mysteries of the plates moot--as I look back into my past, I am constantly surprised that my family never discussed any of these apologetic issues at all, even on the DCP level of blind support for the Mopologetic side.

I can only conclude that for my ultra-TBM family the expectation of belief was so complete and all-encompassing, that it bordered on cultish. The Book of Mormon came from gold plates? Then gold plates existed, end of story, with no consideration of whether the story fit into the real universe.

Consequently, I have learned far more about Mormon scholarship such as the discussions in this thread since I stopped being a Mormon, so your point about being a Mason vs. studying Masonry is well taken.

[_Kishkumen]

That's an interesting point, that a surface level trust in lds claims may render digging into the mysteries of the plates moot--as I look back into my past, I am constantly surprised that my family never discussed any of these apologetic issues at all, even on the DCP level of blind support for the Mopologetic side.

I can only conclude that for my ultra-TBM family the expectation of belief was so complete and all-encompassing, that it bordered on cultish. The Book of Mormon came from gold plates? Then gold plates existed, end of story, with no consideration of whether the story fit into the real universe.

Consequently, I have learned far more about Mormon scholarship such as the discussions in this thread since I stopped being a Mormon, so your point about being a Mason vs. studying Masonry is well taken.

Dan Vogel once said something to the effect of "the difference between me and Mike Quinn is that Mike believes in magic and I don't." No one would deny that Mike Quinn has written work of enormous consequence in Mormon Studies. He wrote most of that as a believer in the truth claims of Mormonism. His sin as an LDS scholar was one of not adequately protecting the reputation of the Church and the tender sensibilities of a membership of limited understanding. I think we can underestimate even the "Mopologists." In this thread we have seen the work of Brant Gardner brought into the discussion. Now, I would not classify him as a "Mopologist" but I would definitely call him an apologist. And, the folks that we usually write off as "Mopologists" have a deep interest in a wide range of topics. It just happens that we usually interact with them as they do the things we don't admire.

[_jj]

It just happens that we usually interact with them as they do the things we don't admire.

I'm assuming another "don't" was meant to go in there somewhere, but I guess it also works as is.

On that note, I'd like to invite all here to Moroni Day 2016...if you are able and willing to support the effort with a tax-deductible donation.