Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

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_gramps
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _gramps »

Morley wrote:Mentalgymnast:

In various threads, you seem to have developed a theme. It moves along the lines of that you (mentalgymnast) have considered the evidence in ways that apostates have not. You think in colors while others think in black and white; you reason outside-the-box, while apostates are constrained by either-or type reasoning. You hint that others are not as well-read in apologetic literature as you, that others are not willing to give faith a chance. You, too, have had a crisis of faith, but you’ve resolved it. You, too, have a huge shelf of doubts, but you’ve managed to keep it shored up.

You are creative and go for runs and are just a regular guy with a regular education, but with super-regular (and perhaps insightful! and probably exciting!) ideas that, if apostates would consider, might resolve their conflicts with the church. You become snippy when your questions are not answered, but feel no obligation to respond to the questions of others (even when you promise to do so). When you’re caught in a contradiction or found to be pulling something out of your (seemingly bottomless) posterior, you maintain that you were just ‘throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks’ and that you shouldn’t be held to what you actually said.

Others might say that you whine, but you don’t complain--you just point things out. Your arguments don’t need coherent logic--because you’re looking at things through the bias of faith and non-binary, coloring-outside-of-the-lines reasoning. If apostates would just step back and do the same, they would see what you see.

Do I have it about right?


This.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_Lemmie
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _Lemmie »

Morley wrote:When you’re caught in a contradiction or found to be pulling something out of your (seemingly bottomless) posterior, you maintain that you were just ‘throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks’


Thanks for the reminder, gramps. I don't think there will ever be a better definition of 'seeing what sticks', Morley, thank you for that!

"your (seemingly bottomless) posterior"
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Morley wrote:Mentalgymnast:

In various threads, you seem to have developed a theme. It moves along the lines of that you (mentalgymnast) have considered the evidence in ways that apostates have not. You think in colors while others think in black and white; you reason outside-the-box, while apostates are constrained by either-or type reasoning. You hint that others are not as well-read in apologetic literature as you, that others are not willing to give faith a chance. You, too, have had a crisis of faith, but you’ve resolved it. You, too, have a huge shelf of doubts, but you’ve managed to keep it shored up.

You are creative and go for runs and are just a regular guy with a regular education, but with super-regular (and perhaps insightful! and probably exciting!) ideas that, if apostates would consider, might resolve their conflicts with the church. You become snippy when your questions are not answered, but feel no obligation to respond to the questions of others (even when you promise to do so). When you’re caught in a contradiction or found to be pulling something out of your (seemingly bottomless) posterior, you maintain that you were just ‘throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks’ and that you shouldn’t be held to what you actually said.

Others might say that you whine, but you don’t complain--you just point things out. Your arguments don’t need coherent logic--because you’re looking at things through the bias of faith and non-binary, coloring-outside-of-the-lines reasoning. If apostates would just step back and do the same, they would see what you see.

Do I have it about right?


Now that was the right approach. I can read it and see the diagnosis as being fair and for the most part on target. And thank you for presenting this in a level headed and civil way. I have mentioned recently that the so-called 'apologist' is at a disadvantage to begin with because the cards are stacked against them in some respects. In the end it comes down to faith/hope...and that can't be quantified/qualified outside of oneself. And it puts one between a rock and a hard place. I've been in that spot many times on this board and then tried to wiggle free. That process aggravates and annoys those that would like to 'simply stick to the facts, m'am' (nod to Sgt. Friday).

I think you pretty much got it. How's that for some intellectual honesty? :smile:

Regards,
MG
_Ceeboo
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey again, MG! :smile:

mentalgymnast wrote:
I appreciate your thoughts Ceeboo.


Thanks, I appreciate your appreciation!

This is a difficult place to hang out as a 'minority'.


Yes, it most certainly can be - and often is.

But, even as a 'minority' (I am certainly a minority here) I am convinced that the MDB can be a really great, a very valuable and a really fun place to hang out.

Peace,
Ceeboo
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:...you will skim right over in your next pity party.


Hi Lemmie,

Morley pretty much diagnosed the approach/methodology of many of my postings on this board. Especially those posts/threads where I am caught between that rock and a hard place of faith/hope vs. cold/hard facts. The 'apologist' is going to try and wriggle free from that situation. That will annoy and irritate others. I can see that.

Terms like whining...pity party...and the such really don't do justice to the actual reality within the minds of those such as myself who choose to continue the journey of faith. I suppose that's what I take issue with in your approach. That being said, I realize that you have your own background/experiences/biases, etc., that are going to influence your perceptions/judgments of others. So I need to cut you some slack there. We all would do well to look at others with more understanding and merciful/forgiving/understanding eyes.

Regards...and have a nice day. I mean that. :smile:

Regards,
MG
_Lemmie
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _Lemmie »

mg wrote:I have mentioned recently that the so-called 'apologist' is at a disadvantage to begin with because the cards are stacked against them in some respects. In the end it comes down to faith/hope...and that can't be quantified/qualified outside of oneself. And it puts one between a rock and a hard place. I've been in that spot many times on this board and then tried to wiggle free. That process aggravates and annoys those that would like to 'simply stick to the facts, m'am' (nod to Sgt. Friday).

I think you pretty much got it. How's that for some intellectual honesty?

I didn't read Morley's comments as an opinion about apologists in general but rather a specific commentary on your posting manner, done ironically. You're the only one who missed that, apparently.

You get stuck 'between a rock and a hard place' because of your methods, but as usual you want to change the definition to a faith issue. It's not. There is no 'intellectual honesty' in your typical re-write, but it is clear you really feel the need the explain to readers what it is other people are feeling as they read your posts.

I really thought this from Morley hit the nail on the head:
You become snippy when your questions are not answered, but feel no obligation to respond to the questions of others (even when you promise to do so). When you’re caught in a contradiction or found to be pulling something out of your (seemingly bottomless) posterior, you maintain that you were just ‘throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks’ and that you shouldn’t be held to what you actually said.


That's a description of you, mg, and that's why other posters get irritated--it has NOTHING to do with your faith.

ETA: I see you have doubled down on your misinterpretation of Morley!
mg, in a quite hilarious misunderstanding of Morley's post, wrote:Morley pretty much diagnosed the approach/methodology of many of my postings on this board. Especially those posts/threads where I am caught between that rock and a hard place of faith/hope vs. cold/hard facts. The 'apologist' is going to try and wriggle free from that situation. That will annoy and irritate others. I can see that.

That's just laughable. Look up irony. But definitely keep quoting Morley's post as an 'explanation' of your approach, the entertainment factor is unlimited.
_Lemmie
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _Lemmie »

mentalgymnast wrote:...We all would do well to look at others with more understanding and merciful/forgiving/understanding eyes.

Regards...and have a nice day. I mean that. :smile:

Regards,
MG

Really? 'It's difficult to take that comment seriously when you posted this less than 6 months ago:
mentalgymnast, may 2016, wrote:...if folks are living the Gospel and accept the teachings as being from God they will be living according to that criteria you mention which produced good fruit. If they are feminists, intellectuals, or gays and are choosing, through their own volition, to disregard and/or ignore certain 'commandments' because they don't believe in the efficacy or usefulness of doing so, then they will see the fruit as being either rotten or undesirable.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41931&start=84

bolding added by me.

I notice, mg, after you so sincerely said you really wanted to know me and you asked your questions of me with the passive-aggressive answers included, you have now dropped it entirely with no comment on my response. So your intent really was just to work your passive-aggressive comments into your post, yes? You are so obvious.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Kishkumen wrote:How you choose to label yourself will not change how I respond to your posts.


MG wrote:Yeah, but the cat is already out of the bag, right?


Kishkumen wrote:No, the label means nothing. It is the substance that matters.


And for some folks that substance is going to be something intangible through simple logic/rationalism.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


My experience has told me that there are substantive reasons to give the CofJCofLDS my allegiance. You and others feel/believe otherwise based on substantive reasons. But the 'substance' of those substantive reasons are going to come in conflict. The person of faith is going to be at a distinct disadvantage to the secularist and/or materialist...or agnostic... who determines what is 'true' and/or real through the available sensory systems and/or the available data...which is pretty much always going to be either incomplete or unavailable.

In the eyes of many, the only sensory systems that are available are the five that we learned about in elementary school.

When/if we throw the possibility that there may be extrasensory systems in play and the inhibitory 'add-on' fact that different folks discern/obtain conflicting messages, etc., through extrasensory means...that muddies the waters for using extrasensory means of obtaining 'truth' and/or knowledge and putting it along side of the 'self evident' truth/knowledge.

So in a way, it's pretty difficult to even carry on a meaningful conversation between folks that see the world in different ways and/or are living within certain paradigms/boxes. There will be conflict...accusations of one sort of another, etc.

I suppose we should readily expect that. And that there isn't a readily available solution except for seeking to understand the other.

Regards,
MG
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
mg wrote:I have mentioned recently that the so-called 'apologist' is at a disadvantage to begin with because the cards are stacked against them in some respects. In the end it comes down to faith/hope...and that can't be quantified/qualified outside of oneself. And it puts one between a rock and a hard place. I've been in that spot many times on this board and then tried to wiggle free. That process aggravates and annoys those that would like to 'simply stick to the facts, m'am' (nod to Sgt. Friday).

I think you pretty much got it. How's that for some intellectual honesty?

I didn't read Morley's comments as an opinion about apologists in general but rather a specific commentary on your posting manner, done ironically. You're the only one who missed that, apparently.

You get stuck 'between a rock and a hard place' because of your methods, but as usual you want to change the definition to a faith issue. It's not. There is no 'intellectual honesty' in your typical re-write, but it is clear you really feel the need the explain to readers what it is other people are feeling as they read your posts.

I really thought this from Morley hit the nail on the head:
You become snippy when your questions are not answered, but feel no obligation to respond to the questions of others (even when you promise to do so). When you’re caught in a contradiction or found to be pulling something out of your (seemingly bottomless) posterior, you maintain that you were just ‘throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks’ and that you shouldn’t be held to what you actually said.


That's a description of you, mg, and that's why other posters get irritated--it has NOTHING to do with your faith.

ETA: I see you have doubled down on your misinterpretation of Morley!
mg, in a quite hilarious misunderstanding of Morley's post, wrote:Morley pretty much diagnosed the approach/methodology of many of my postings on this board. Especially those posts/threads where I am caught between that rock and a hard place of faith/hope vs. cold/hard facts. The 'apologist' is going to try and wriggle free from that situation. That will annoy and irritate others. I can see that.

That's just laughable. Look up irony. But definitely keep quoting Morley's post as an 'explanation' of your approach, the entertainment factor is unlimited.


And here we go again.

Regards,
MG
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Apologist-NOM-Nontraditional Mormon

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:...We all would do well to look at others with more understanding and merciful/forgiving/understanding eyes.

Regards...and have a nice day. I mean that. :smile:

Regards,
MG

Really? 'It's difficult to take that comment seriously when you posted this less than 6 months ago:
posted May, 2016:
mentalgymnast, may 2016, wrote:...if folks are living the Gospel and accept the teachings as being from God they will be living according to that criteria you mention which produced good fruit. If they are feminists, intellectuals, or gays and are choosing, through their own volition, to disregard and/or ignore certain 'commandments' because they don't believe in the efficacy or usefulness of doing so, then they will see the fruit as being either rotten or undesirable.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41931&start=84

bolding added by me.

I notice, mg, after you so sincerely said you really wanted to know me and you asked your questions of me with the passive-aggressive answers included, you have now dropped it entirely with no comment on my response. So your intent really was just to work your passive-aggressive comments into your post, yes? You are so obvious.


And again...

Regards,
MG
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