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Madison54 wrote:

DoubtingThomas wrote:3. I still don't see how we can rule out that Sylvia meant "spiritual" or "adopted" daughter. Perhaps it was a secret because it was too sacred to her?

Sylvia stated on her death bed (to Josephine) that she wanted to tell her a secret that no one else knew. We know this was not that Josephine was Joseph's spiritual daughter because there is record of Sylvia already being open about that.

Here is what Josephine wrote about this conversation with her mother:
“Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”.

But, Sylvia's other daughter (Phebe) wrote that her mother "had spoken often of her 'special sealing' to the Prophet Joseph Smith".

So the "secret" was not that Josephine was Joseph's spiritual daughter, it was that Sylvia believed Josephine was Joseph's physical daughter ("an entire secret" that had been kept from Josephine "and from all others").

Here's a link to Phebe's statement and writings:
http://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-c ... hapter.pdf

grindael wrote:Minimal. Emma got pregnant with David Hyrum Smith around February, 1844.

Physics Guy wrote:I have nothing to add to this specific discussion but I want to say that I appreciate DoubtingThomas's attitude. Apologists often manage to imitate responsible history by exaggerating the quality of their evidence, and one way they do this is just by not thinking enough about alternative interpretations of their evidence, so that it seems much more conclusive than it really is.

If one is trying to counter apologetic claims, it may be tempting to stoop to the same level; but I think that's counter-productive. It might win the odd skirmish, but it lets apologists stay in the war, by validating their low standards of evidence. I think it's better to hammer on the weakness of weak evidence, and if that means giving up a few of the many charges against Joseph Smith, then oh well.

It's fine to say that the weight of evidence suggests that Smith did a lot of adultery, but it's probably worth making a point of always qualifying that kind of statement with a warning that the evidence remains inconclusive, because it consists too largely of statements by a few people, whose veracity is open to doubt. That holds the bar high.

DoubtingThomas wrote:
Please show me the overwhelming evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with his polyandrous wives? I can point to a lot of evidence that he had sex with his polygamous wives, but I can't do the same with his polyandrous wives. The only reason I am not convinced is because I haven't seen enough evidence. Again, I don't have to prove anything, I think the burden of proof falls on you.

Nonetheless, during the Church trial of Benjamin Winchester in May 1843, a typescript of which was provided to Hales years ago by his research-assistant,44 Joseph Smith said that Winchester (in statements to Philadelphia's Mormons) had "told one of the most damnable lies about me. [that I] visited Sister Smith--Sister Dibble ... that I was guilty of improper conduct."45 To protect himself and the Church,46 the Prophet dismissed the "lies" about him and his widowed sister-inlaw Agnes Coolbrith Smith in 1843, yet Hales acknowledged that she became Joseph's polygamous wife in January 1842.47 Although Benjamin Winchester lived in Philadelphia during most of the 1840s, he was in Nauvoo long enough in 1842 to purchase a small amount of land for which he was assessed that year.48 The visit necessary for Winchester to look at Nauvoo's properties and to arrange for the purchase of one parcel of land also gave him opportunity to hear a rumor about Joseph and Agnes, or to observe them together If the above linkage of documents written in 1842 and 1843 doesn't persuade Hales as "evidence" about Hannah Dibble, in 1947 the LDS Church's Midwest publishing company printed Benjamin F. Johnson's autobiography, which stated: "At this time [May 1843,] I knew that the Prophet had as his wives ... Sisters Lyon and Dibble," among others that Johnson identified, including two of his own sisters. Hales cited that source in his 2012 article about "Joseph Smith's Personal Polygamy."49 Furthermore, a year after those marital references to Joseph Smith and "Sister Dibble" in 1843, Hannah Dubois Dibble gave birth to a child on 29 May 1844..

Still another of these women (Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner Smith) told an audience of Mormon college students in 1905 that she personally knew three children who claimed Joseph Smith as their actual father, even though these children "go by other names." The three children who claimed Joseph Smith's paternity had to be adults when "they told me,"51 probably after she was included in a semi-official list of the Prophet's polygamous wives, as published in 1887 by Andrew Jenson.52 That excludes the only children alleged to have been born to Joseph Smith's otherwiseunmarried wives Fanny Alger, Eliza R. Snow, and Olive G. Frost, because each of those alleged children was stillborn or died shortly after birth.53 Moreover, for Mary Lightner's statement to have direct application to the founding Prophet (as the context of her remarks indicated), she was also not referring to children produced by the post-martyrdom marriages of women who were Joseph's wives during his lifetime. ... DNA testing can disprove assumptions and speculations about paternity,57 but cannot disprove the basis of Mary Lightner Smith's 1905 claim: three alreadymarried women (besides herself) had borne a child they each assumed was produced by their literal relationship with the Prophet Joseph Smith, not by their legally recognized husbands with whom they were cohabiting.

Shortly before her own death, Phebe Louisa Welling wrote: "I heard my mother [Elvira Ann Cowles Holmes] testify that she was indeed the Prophet Joseph Smith's plural wife in life and lived with him as such during his lifetime."64 I see no ambiguity in that statement by a daughter who was twenty years old when her mother died in 1871.65 Furthermore, I find it difficult to believe that Elvira's 37-year-old widower-husband Jonathan stopped having sex with her only six months after their civil wedding,66 simply to accommodate the Prophet's sexual relations with her (which in June 1843 seemed likely to continue for many years).67

I [Lucy Meserve Smith] told George A. what sister Emma had said. He related to me the circumstance of his calling on Joseph late one evening, and he was just taking a wash [--] and Joseph told him that one of his wives had just been confined [for childbirth] and Emma was the Midwife. He [George A.] told me this to prove to me that the women were married for time, as [i.e., because] Emma had told me that Joseph never taught any such thing [--she said that] they were only sealed for eternity [--] they were not to live with them and have children ... it's difficult to imagine that the Church President's wife would give after-the-fact sanction to the pregnancy of an unmarried woman by serving as her midwife. Therefore, Lucy Meserve Smith's account of what her husband learned directly from the Prophet must refer to a childbearing woman who was another man's legal wife. Unaware that this woman was also Joseph's polygamous wife, Emma would not object to acting as midwife, especially for one of her friends--as many of these already-married women were.

SteelHead wrote:

grindael wrote:Minimal. Emma got pregnant with David Hyrum Smith around February, 1844.

Maybe David..... was some one else's?

I've often wondered if perhaps Smith was sterile and Emma was getting a bit on the side, having learned from Joseph Smith's example.

According to a National Geographic survey, 77 percent of all Americans “believe there are signs that aliens have visited Earth”, and according to a recent Harris poll only 68 percent of all Americans believe that Jesus is God or the Son of God. That means that the number of Americans that believe that UFOs have visited us is now greater than the number of Americans that believe what the Bible has to say about Jesus Christ. http://thetruthwins.com/archives/more-a ... son-of-god

grindael wrote:People who believe in Alien visits is COMMON:

grindael wrote: And another instance of Smith having sex with a married woman --- Mary Heron Snider. Testimony by her son in law, Joseph Johnson who actually saw Joseph "frigging" her. I suppose he was seeing things too? Had a false memory?

grindael wrote: More evidence, Augusta Adams Cobb writing to her husband Brigham Young and reminding him that he told her not to be alone with Joseph Smith because she might be "overcome" by him and she said it was sexually overcome.

grindael wrote: Mike Quinn documented the overwhelming evidence of Joseph's sexual relations with his married spiritual wives, and here are a few of them:
Nonetheless, during the Church trial of Benjamin Winchester in May 1843, a typescript of which was provided to Hales years ago by his research-assistant,44 Joseph Smith said that Winchester (in statements to Philadelphia's Mormons) had "told one of the most damnable lies about me. [that I] visited Sister Smith--Sister Dibble ... that I was guilty of improper conduct."

Still another of these women (Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner Smith) told an audience of Mormon college students in 1905 that she personally knew three children who claimed Joseph Smith as their actual father, even though these children "go by other names." The three children who claimed Joseph Smith's paternity had to be adults when "they told me,"51 probably after she was included in a semi-official list of the Prophet's polygamous wives, as published in 1887 by Andrew Jenson.52 That excludes the only children alleged to have been born to Joseph Smith's otherwiseunmarried wives Fanny Alger, Eliza R. Snow, and Olive G. Frost, because each of those alleged children was stillborn or died shortly after birth.53 Moreover, for Mary Lightner's statement to have direct application to the founding Prophet (as the context of her remarks indicated), she was also not referring to children produced by the post-martyrdom marriages of women who were Joseph's wives during his lifetime. ... DNA testing can disprove assumptions and speculations about paternity,57 but cannot disprove the basis of Mary Lightner Smith's 1905 claim: three alreadymarried women (besides herself) had borne a child they each assumed was produced by their literal relationship with the Prophet Joseph Smith, not by their legally recognized husbands with whom they were cohabiting.

First, we must assume that if Joseph was their biological father, then their mothers could not have been cohabiting with their legal husband during the period of conception or paternity would not be known. Second, we must assume that their mothers admitted to the children in a convincing way that Joseph was their true father, thus disfranchising their legal fathers who had raised them. Third, we must assume that the three children were comfortable sharing with Mary Elizabeth that their mothers engaged in sexual polyandry with Joseph Smith, even though D&C 132 (canonized in 1876) condemns it and every known statement from Church members and leaders in the nineteenth century declares it immoral. Fourth, we must assume that three children learned of Mary Elizabeth’s sealing to Joseph Smith either by reading Andrew Jenson’s article or through other means. Fifth, we must assume that discussing Joseph’s polygamy was so important to the three children that they traveled to Lehi to talk to her about it or encountered her on some chance occasion. Mary Elizabeth did not circulate a great deal in her later years and did not talk much about Nauvoo polygamy prior to the 1890s. In addition, we must assume that Mary Elizabeth would have openly admitted to Joseph Smith’s polyandrous sexuality in front of an audience of missionaries at BYU in 1905 despite its status as a transgression.

It seems there is a more plausible antecedent of “they” in Mary Elizabeth’s comments. Before mentioning “I knew he had three children,” she twice referred to Joseph Smith plural wives numbering them at six and saying she knew them growing up: “I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up.” Then she mentioned “I knew he had three children.” Within the context of the entire discourse it seems more probable that she was simply referring to some of the six wives who had three children. That is, the antecedent of “they” in “They told me” is the plural wives of Joseph Smith, not the three children. This could have easily occurred in Nauvoo where all the women were living in close proximity and would have born the last child prior to April of 1845.

A review of the entire discourse shows that nowhere does Mary Elizabeth’s speak about “already married women” (i.e. polyandrous spouses) who were sealed to the Prophet. Her comments referred to Joseph Smith’s plural “wives” generally without differentiating their ages, sealing dates, or legal marital status. It is unclear why any investigator would assume that any of her comments refer strictly of “already married” wives of the Prophet nor did Quinn explicate his unique view of her remarks. Notwithstanding, Quinn repeatedly refers to the statement as if it were evidence of children being born in sexual polyandry (11, 16).

SteelHead wrote:I've often wondered if perhaps Smith was sterile and Emma was getting a bit on the side, having learned from Joseph Smith's example.