A question I would like answered

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I was 30.

Some major concerns that led to the collapse, billions of people not receiving the Celestial Kingdom simply because they weren't born into it. (Don't tell me they have a chance in the next life. The doctrine is pretty clear only a comparable few will accept their proxy work) I also hated the fact that being born Mormon actually made it harder to enter the Celestial Kingdom as you had greater light and knowledge than someone not Mormon and therefore you were more accountable for your transgressions. I also didn't like the fact Motab would be the music of eternity while Pearl Jam would be rocking the telestial world.

But, at the end of the day, Joseph Smiths polygamy/polyandry/pedophilia was the item the collapsed my shelf. He's a predator and would be in prison in today's environment. I can't support a God that his chosen elect is a disgusting perverted criminal. If Joe were alive and approached my daughter with the flaming sword story, I'd have no problem taking him out back and beating the **** out of him. As such, he was no longer a prophet to me and I think it's disgusting a MG type character supports and reveres such a disgusting human being like horny Joe Smith.

But hey, to each their own.

One has to wonder what Spirit Prison is like and how, under Mormon theological paradigms operates. I'm with you in that I used to think that those of us who were born into Mormonism, weren't spiritual enough to eat it at pre-accountability ages, really got the raw end of the stick.

- Doc

[_I have a question]

I was 30.

Some major concerns that led to the collapse, billions of people not receiving the Celestial Kingdom simply because they weren't born into it. (Don't tell me they have a chance in the next life. The doctrine is pretty clear only a comparable few will accept their proxy work...

Think about the implications of this.

Firstly, in full possession of all the eternal facts, a third of us voted against the plan.
Of the two thirds that accepted the plan, only a negligible few will go through this life as Mormons.
Of the overwhelming majority of people going through this life without Mormonism, hardly any will accept Mormonism in the afterlife - where they will be in full possession of all the eternal facts.

What is this telling us about Mormonism and the Plan?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I was 30.

Some major concerns that led to the collapse, billions of people not receiving the Celestial Kingdom simply because they weren't born into it. (Don't tell me they have a chance in the next life. The doctrine is pretty clear only a comparable few will accept their proxy work...

Think about the implications of this.

Firstly, in full possession of all the eternal facts, a third of us voted against the plan.
Of the two thirds that accepted the plan, only a negligible few will go through this life as Mormons.
Of the overwhelming majority of people going through this life without Mormonism, hardly any will accept Mormonism in the afterlife - where they will be in full possession of all the eternal facts.

What is this telling us about Mormonism and the Plan?

When I was younger I had a similar thought; it dawned on me the Plan was just a great political filter for a few chosen favorites who would then become gods, create a huge labor force through progeny, and repeat the cycle.

Lucifer struck me as the genuinely altruistic one, and I never heard a good reason for countering his communalism except for "free choice". When I would counter that none of us really have free choice because God created us exactly how He wanted to create us, because God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and eternal thus we acting according to our design I would just get a deer in the headlights look for a moment, and they would just resort to repeating themselves.

Mormonism falls apart pretty quickly when examined critically, and that's the reason why the Church indoctrinates and inculcates in our youth an Us versus Them mentality early on. It's a powerful tool to keep people in line, and it takes an extraordinary effort to break those mental bonds.

- Doc

[_Maksutov]

Think about the implications of this.

Firstly, in full possession of all the eternal facts, a third of us voted against the plan.
Of the two thirds that accepted the plan, only a negligible few will go through this life as Mormons.
Of the overwhelming majority of people going through this life without Mormonism, hardly any will accept Mormonism in the afterlife - where they will be in full possession of all the eternal facts.

What is this telling us about Mormonism and the Plan?

When I was younger I had a similar thought; it dawned on me the Plan was just a great political filter for a few chosen favorites who would then become gods, create a huge labor force through progeny, and repeat the cycle.

Lucifer struck me as the genuinely altruistic one, and I never heard a good reason for countering his communalism except for "free choice". When I would counter that none of us really have free choice because God created us exactly how He wanted to create us, because God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and eternal thus we acting according to our design I would just get a deer in the headlights look for a moment, and they would just resort to repeating themselves.

Mormonism falls apart pretty quickly when examined critically, and that's the reason why the Church indoctrinates and inculcates in our youth an Us versus Them mentality early on. It's a powerful tool to keep people in line, and it takes an extraordinary effort to break those mental bonds.

- Doc

Another thing that's often occurred to me, Doc: for what is described as The American Religion, I'm always struck by how incompatible Mormonism actually is with American values. Mormonism exalts unelected elites, provides for no accountability, no democracy, no due process, no Constitution or other authoritative document, only an Orwellian theocratic dictatorship, drawn from a few privileged Mormon aristocratic families, which also dreams of a sort of monarchy where prophets are made "kings". We even have Mitt Romney on the campaign trail saying that you have to have faith in order to have freedom...perhaps because only those of faith would have freedom in a Mormon theocracy, and the theocrats think that's just dandy.

Mormonism needs a Bill of Rights and will never have one.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Another thing that's often occurred to me, Doc: for what is described as The American Religion, I'm always struck by how incompatible Mormonism actually is with American values. Mormonism exalts unelected elites, provides for no accountability, no democracy, no due process, no Constitution or other authoritative document, only an Orwellian theocratic dictatorship, drawn from a few privileged Mormon aristocratic families, which also dreams of a sort of monarchy where prophets are made "kings". We even have Mitt Romney on the campaign trail saying that you have to have faith in order to have freedom...perhaps because only those of faith would have freedom in a Mormon theocracy, and the theocrats think that's just dandy.

Mormonism needs a Bill of Rights and will never have one.

Oh, wow. You're spot one. Add to that the temple covenants you make and then repeatedly make as a proxy, and Mormonism is downright totalitarian (good thing they took the Avenging Joseph Smith's death out of the ceremony...). No wonder Mormons scare the crap out of most people when looked at for what it is.

- Doc

[Guest]

The Spirit Prison doctrine wasn't really developed until an English convert named Ann Booth has a vision of the Spirit World in 1840 and two Apostles copied it and sent it to Nauvoo where it was read and discussed by many. In that vision, Ann claimed to see the dead David W. Patten preaching to the dead in the afterlife and baptizing and confirming them and giving them the priesthood.

One of Joseph's bodyguards, Seymour Brunson, believed the vision, but got ill and died. Before he died he said he "saw" David Patten and he was calling him to the Spirit Prison to preach to the dead.

Joseph was made aware of the vision, and claimed that what Ann saw about baptizing in the Spirit World was wrong, that the dead spirits must have people on earth stand as proxies for them. He said that God only showed Ann what he did to show the importance of baptism. Joseph then (using 1 Corinthians as a proof text) developed the Baptism for the Dead doctrine.

Up until this time, there was only mention of the Savior preaching to the Spirits that lived in the "days of Noah". Ann's vision jump started the whole Mormon idea of the Spirit Prison and the organized effort to preach to the Spirits there, and Joseph's Baptism for the Dead doctrine and then the doctrine of "sealing" which was in turn applied to the marriage covenant.

There's more, and you can read about it in an Essay that I wrote with Mike Marquardt that will be published in the Spring, 2017 John Whitmer Historical Journal.

[_Mormonicious]

Hence the terms:

Mormonicious - The inability to see reality at the cost of all.
Mormoniciousness - The act of denying reality to preserve and judge the ignorant world built around Mormoronism

and the phrase

STUPID damned MORMORONS